General Discussion

[DarkTl]

labels-girlsmeets.rpy, label gm_interact_interest, after that goes

    python:
        """
        Traits first here I guess...
        """

What is that?

Also, does ct("trait1", "trait2") mean "trait1 or trait2"?

[Naurlas]

Hello, posting idea I am yet to see in Slave Training game.. And since your game does it already to extent, mb I have small chance here ;P
I am talking about dividing girls by type ( the game does it already to extent Free / Slave Girls)


What I lack is this :
Free Girls
Slave Girls
     - High Class  ( Noblesse mainly, mb clergy / wizards / knights type of elite)
     - Middle Class ( Merchants mainly, mb some kind of squires / maids of noblesse etc)
     - Low Class ( Prostitutes , slaves and other scum in game terms.)
     - Foreigners ( Cat girls, monster girls, elf's, whatever is not citizens of you city)




Why do I propose this concept ?
Simply because it makes game more interesting :
1) Gives player more goals (yey my first middle class girl !)
2) More brothel customization ( High class brothel -  this one !)

Allows for many interesting concepts
1) For example High Class should be only obtainable by some special circumstances ( Noble being bankrupt,  Kidnapping )
2) Same for middle class to lower extent.
3) And low class > pretty much what u have in game, always available in slave market.
4) Missions ( get Brothel with 4 Middle class girls in 3 days because noble wants them, father wants to buyback girl, noble sends hired assassin to take girl home etc)


Of course you have to get something to actually make the girls different and that could be :
1 ) Higher class could be pre-equipped with items unuqie to them.
2)  Traits to be different ! Every girl can have big boobs but Elegant... Slave girl ? Really ?
3) Can work with different clients / can have different positions available. (for example High Class girl will not clean , while Low Class can't dance properly  until taught)
4) Since exploration is on it's way, then for example how this slaves at market learn magic ? while free / high class could have acces to it.

[Xela]

labels-girlsmeets.rpy, label gm_interact_interest, after that goesWhat is that?

I think that it's an example of how to leave a multi-line comment in PyTFall.

Also, does ct("trait1", "trait2") mean "trait1 or trait2"?

Yeap.

Hello, posting idea I am yet to see in Slave Training game.. And since your game does it already to extent, mb I have small chance here ;P
I am talking about dividing girls by type ( the game does it already to extent Free / Slave Girls)


What I lack is this :
Free Girls
Slave Girls
     - High Class  ( Noblesse mainly, mb clergy / wizards / knights type of elite)
     - Middle Class ( Merchants mainly, mb some kind of squires / maids of noblesse etc)
     - Low Class ( Prostitutes , slaves and other scum in game terms.)
     - Foreigners ( Cat girls, monster girls, elf's, whatever is not citizens of you city)

I doubt that there will be "classes", we already have stats/traits/experience/income that does a very similar thing, we could add a social standing for every girl but it seems like a lot of work for little reward.

Why do I propose this concept ?
Simply because it makes game more interesting :
1) Gives player more goals (yey me first middle class girl !)
2) More brothel customization ( High class brothel -  this one !)

We'll prolly do something about brothel customization at some point, CW was talking about similar thing just a while ago.

Allows for many interesting concepts
1) For example High Class should be only obtainable by some special circumstances ( Noble being bankrupt,  Kidnapping )
2) Same for middle class to lower extent of course.
3) And low class > pretty much what u have in game, always available in slave market.
4) Missions ( get Brother with 4 Middle class girls in 3 days because noble wants them, father wants to buyback girl, noble sends hired assassin to take girl home etc)

1, 2 and 3 are already possible, there are not enough people of the team to write the concept/code/create content for it.

4: Also already possible, but missions would require a whole new module introduced so same thing as above applies.

*There are so many excellent add-ons to the game that I can think of atm, but it all comes down to a size of the dev team in the end. We could use writers, extra coder or two, more content creators, concept designers and etc...

Of course you have to get something to actually make the girls different and that could be :
1 ) Higher class could be pre-equipped.
2)  Traits to be different ! Every girl can have big boobs but Elegant... Slave girl ? Really ?
3) Can work with different clients / can have different positions available. (for example High Class girl will not clean , while Low Class can't dance properly  until taught)

1) Any class can be pre-equipped.
2) I have no problem with an elegant slavegirl.
3) These are just stat ranges. Will prolly over-complicate things, but I'll think about it.

[Naurlas]

Aye, I know development team is small , and it's your game not mine , so I will be happy with even 1 of idea makes it.


Still I can't really agree with you on this 2 points :

we already have stats/traits/experience/income that does a very similar thing

It doesn't even come close. Stats / experience / income right now depend poorly on how long girl works and nothing more. Worst slave scum can top any free girl - no problem.
My point being : Every girl feels the same, writing extensive story for each of them is no-go, that's why I propose social standings.


Besides points I mentioned before it can also be used for other things :
- Different class girls could have penalties / don't want to work at all with other class.
- Different courses available ( ya stats ranges... And it makes girls different)
- Higher class dost mean exactly better - for example Noble girls hardly good at fighting,  but maybe some exceptional magician among them with all that connections and money ?


Which goes to second point... Traits do help yeah but that :

2) I have no problem with an elegant slavegirl.

Well then you mean all the girls have same options in traits ? Then where do they catch them ? "No-Name-Girls-Woods" ? In the city you emphasis has HIGH difference between nobles living in luxury and slave scum, there is no difference between girls ? I mean where do that low-class slaves learn to dance/use magic/being good at fighting ? If they did they wouldn't be some kind of slaves. Also those nobles would deemed different kinds of girls, not just "standard" one. One would want a slave, second a free girl, third foreigner or exotic girl other one would enjoy his competitor daughter and so on....


Tl;tr : It's totally unrealistic to have all the girls posses same starting options, yes even scum girl can be taught to be Elegant and to Wield Magic  > but certainly not start as equal in capabilities with more wealthy citizens.

[Xela]

Aye, I know development team is small , and it's your game not mine , so I will be happy with even 1 of idea makes it.


Still I can't really agree with you on this 2 points :



It doesn't even come close. Stats / experience / income right now depend poorly on how long girl works and nothing more. Worst slave scum can top any free girl - no problem.
My point being : Every girl feels the same, writing extensive story for each of them is no-go, that's why I propose social standings.


Besides points I mentioned before it can also be used for other things :
- Different class girls could have penalties / don't want to work at all with other class.
- Different courses available ( ya stats ranges... And it makes girls different)
- Higher class dost mean exactly better - for example Noble girls hardly good at fighting,  but maybe some exceptional magician among them with all that connections and money ?

That is no longer the case. Since last release a number of features were introduced that further advance differences between characters. Slave girls that work in sex industry can no longer be advances past rank 3. Free girls will not allow MC free access to their inventory while slave girls will. There are more stats checks.

- "Not want to work" didn't work out even at the base level.
- Different courses are already there.
- Yes... but the trouble is that Noble girl can be lethal in fighting, ecstatic at sex or not good at anything at all. Noble is a trait, it's not a class that can determine anything to any reasonable degree. Same goes for practically any class that you've suggested.

*We will have different starting levels soon enough. Per occupation stat maxes progression is planned as well as well. You want all girls to feel unique but it just cannot be done in a game with 100 - 1000 potential characters... Some girls can be made unique with extra content without a doubt and game already anticipates that but atm we simply don't have the time to work on that.

Which goes to second point... Traits do help yeah but that :

Well then you mean all the girls have same options in traits ? Then where do they catch them ? "No-Name-Girls-Woods" ? In the city you emphasis has HIGH difference between nobles living in luxury and slave scum, there is no difference between girls ? I mean where do that low-class slaves learn to dance/use magic/being good at fighting ? If they did they wouldn't be some kind of slaves. Also those nobles would deemed different kinds of girls, not just "standard" one. One would want a slave, second a free girl, third foreigner or exotic girl other one would enjoy his competitor daughter and so on....


Tl;tr : It's totally unrealistic to have all the girls posses same starting options, yes even scum girl can be taught to be Elegant and to Wield Magic  > but certainly not start as equal in capabilities with more wealthy citizens.

The starting issue will be solved soon, girls will simply start off at different levels and stats.

Not all girls have the same traits options! There are blocked traits, traits that are blocked absolutely (girl cannot gain a trait even by using 100 000 Gold priced Item), most traits have unique responses during girlsmeets, some jobs, events and etc.

Where, praise you in PyTFall, did you find a slave that was good at fighting? Slaves are forbidden from doing/learning combat by games design, all fighters at Arena ladders including the |King| are free. You cannot send a girl to learn combat at school, neither can you set one up as a guard. Remaining options are limited and any free girl will eclipse a slave at combat abilities at much lower price/time investment.

We've created plenty of differences between slave and free girls. Same goes for a lot of different characters thought traits and even some unique content written by CW. The only way we'll ever be able to create fundamental differences between characters is by dropping current concept and focusing on 10 - 20 girls. The traits system is responsible for dozens - hundreds of  unique lines during jobs and events and hundreds - soon thousands of lines during girls-meets and you are still having trouble catching the difference between characters. You classes proposal does even come close to traits concept... the differences you propose will not be noticeable without a LOT of extra content that, if introduced solely on basis of stats and traits will serve exactly the same purpose.

[DarkTl]

Classes system will add more depth to the game without a doubt. Just like any other system that we don't have right now.

Basically, we could add something like this eventually, but not before many other systems that are already planned. Unless you willing to create content for classes system, in which case we'll add it for sure as soon as there will be content.

[Xela]

Classes system will add more depth to the game without a doubt.

Am I really that big of a skeptic?

It was definitely true an 12 - 18 month ago, I am less confident of that now. At some point choice needs to be made between stats like fame/reputation/refinement and classes, simply because trying to have all of those in the game will harm the development more than it will help the concept.

We're falling behind in content more and more. At this point, if we focused on one module, like battle engine, we could have easily have a game like:
http://unityofcommand.net/ (50k lines of Python code vs 55k we have in PyTFall)

There is very little preventing us from getting close to that level, Ren'Py will not hold us back, I know how to code every part of that concept and combat is definitely something you're interested in. The thing is that with every module, more and more things need to be taken care of, more and more things kept in mind. 40% of time I spent on SE module was simply to prevent it from interfering with the rest of the modules like GM, Arena, Auto-equip and Brothels.

We'll have to drop some thing if we're ever to have modules like ST/Alchemy/Crafting/MC guided exploration. And definitely have to drop some stuff if we want to have coherent content, quests and events...

[Naurlas]

@DarkTI


That was why I was relucant to post here, since I can't help creating content - I am doing translation job for eroge scene ( Someone here mentioned playing AA2 right ? Then be happy u can do so in English - unless you speak and read Japanease )
I have huge images repository. So if ya want some kind of pics I can try to provide them. Other then that I wont be able to help.


@Xela
Seems we don't speak on same wavelenght, your game - do whatever you want with it.
Some things you talk about like different starting level and so on - these are nice steps.


But we don't agree on basic level here :

Not all girls have the same traits options!you are still having trouble catching the difference between characters

I sure am having trouble with this - becouse all these things u are talking about in that part are DEVELOPER SIDE ONLY. Player dosn't see that some Traits combinations dosnt happen and why should he care ? It's just limitation from above he do nothing about. And some lines durning dialog ? Please this is not even part of Brothel Menagment , untill it's in developer version, acutal text lines only metter in Rercuritment.(and barly if we are at that)

I have trouble why don't you see that player can Control and Interact with girls being from different categories / groups / classes . He can choose what he lacks and what kind of girls he would like to have / are needed for mission. ( I don't have girls with <Insert Trait Name Here> ... ok then I need some middle-class girls becouse they do learn it / start with it / have it easier.) instead of (ok Slave Market...)

That being said, of course amount of team members limits a lot of things and it's up to you which idea goes to trashbin.
 Take care.

[Xela]

@Xela
Seems we don't speak on same wavelenght, your game - do whatever you want with it.
Some things you talk about like different starting level and so on - these are nice steps.

Yeah, but it's not "my game". If it was, we've have 1/10 of content that we have today and a sort of a SimBro clone with WM pic categories. Not mentioning that we've absorbed dozens of ideas provided by the players from 4 - 5 forums.

But we don't agree on basic level here :I sure am having trouble with this - becouse all these things u are talking about in that part are DEVELOPER SIDE ONLY. Player dosn't see that some Traits combinations dosnt happen and why should he care ? It's just limitation from above he do nothing about. And some lines durning dialog ? Please this is not even part of Brothel Menagment , untill it's in developer version, acutal text lines only metter in Rercuritment.(and barly if we are at that)

I have trouble why don't you see that player can Control and Interact with girls being from different categories / groups / classes . He can choose what he lacks and what kind of girls he would like to have / are needed for mission. ( I don't have girls with <Insert Trait Name Here> ... ok then I need some middle-class girls becouse they do learn it / start with it / have it easier.) instead of (ok Slave Market...)

That being said, of course amount of team members limits a lot of things and it's up to you which idea goes to trashbin.
 Take care.

Traits do matter during jobs to various degrees as well. We'll have mechanics preventing player from getting high leveled girls before player/his business are at the level soon enough. About |not seeing| combinations, we can't really help that It's up to the player to explore the world and the game and everything that has to offer.

I completely agree that there are no missions to speak of, but atm we don't have that mechanic at all so there is little point in trying to emulate one until we introduce that module into the game. If we do, it'll just create more work in the future, that's what I've been trying to relay all this time.

[DarkTl]

Am I really that big of a skeptic?

You missed my point. Planned systems:
- slave training
- MC house
- dating
- advanced BE
- advanced EE
- a bit more advanced items system (because the current one has some known problems with min/max values)
- clones
- crafting
- head slot (yeah  )
- relationships between girls
- simple quests
- maybe more, I could forget something
Now after we will have them all, we might as well add classes too, because why not? 

I have huge images repository. So if ya want some kind of pics I can try to provide them. Other then that I wont be able to help.

Yeap, that would be a great help too.

[Xela]

Now after we will have them all, we might as well add classes too, because why not? 

I think you've missed my point

It will be too late by then because with each system we advance and normalize a lot of game's concepts. That late into the development, introducing something like classes to substitute stats (unless we're taking about something as simple as stats obfuscation), will not be sound from the development perspective as all modules would need adjustment like falling down dominoes chain.

These decisions we need to make today, actually, we should have made them yesterday and I think that we have... I'll push some work I've done on the SE module soon, I still need to add handing dirt, cleaning, upgrades and training in the guild... I'll try to finish all of that this week so we have a more or less complete module.

[DarkTl]

Nah, this is unavoidable. By then any new system will require more and more adjustment.

We don't need to always take the difficult road though. Let's take that idea about selecting MC's gender. That will require insane amount of work already. Or we could introduce an item or a spell that change gender, so that palyers who want it could have female avatar, wear female items, participate in lesbian actions, but nothing more, like dialogues or stats.

[CherryWood]

I agree more with Xela here. I believe that expanding trait related events in a way to go for making girls more unique. And that was always in the todo list, more or less.


-----------------
I was out for few days, so there was a significant delay, but I think I finish shop pics and some head slot items soon (dunno about the description texts, maybe some will have to be without them for a while, it's hard to make them).
With tavern, some items I wanted to add for some explorable locations and simple SE quest, I'm waiting for SE update, as I can't continue on that yet without some support/more info. (how FG will look like, how to write item drops in json, what options for quests are in that module).

[Xela]

I'm waiting for SE update, as I can't continue on that yet without some support/more info. (how FG will look like, how to write item drops in json, what options for quests are in that module).

I think unique/special item drops you can handle with something like:

items: {"item_id1": chancetofind, "item_id2": chancetofind} and so on.

Quests are not module related, you just go searching items and can complete a quest if you find one.

BTW, feel free to create areas that can be unclocked only when a quest is given by NPC, it's just one line of code

I'll improve SE further next week (and finish it as an alpha concept hopefully).

Anyway, for now SF Updated:

- Cleaned up Swords/Shield picture
- Some code improvements
- Fixed Arena Bonus roll music not stopping when quitting chainfights
- Added proper flags to Building classes
- Added Hazard to SE
- Added Green Flags to SE
- Added girls using restore items to SE
- Added travel-time (forward+back at start for now)
- Added Resting to recever is anyone is injured or fatigued
- Added mobs numbers to SE
- FG will now be added to Heroes buildings instead of having a test button
- Area will now default to CWs json. My test json file is deleted
- Improved sorting logic for SE areas
- General Area button will now change the area as well
- Warriors are marked in FG
- Loads of interface improvements to FG
- Normalized and styled all drop-down menus

* Note that tagger is screwed until Ren'Py 6.18 comes out, some parts of Fighters Guild as well. It shouldn't be long now.

[Naurlas]

@


Then please tell me what kind of resolution you are looking for.
And of course what kind of things you are looking for.