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Offline CherryWood

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Re: Battle Engine and Combat
« Reply #15 on: January 26, 2014, 12:32:05 PM »
 From games with FF style combat like we have now, I kinda liked J-Girls Fight (crimson's H flash game)
http://www.funny-games.biz/j-girl-fight.html
(It have back row (2+2 chr) that is not targetable with melee attacks, special attack gauge (one for entire team) that is increased with normal attack and charge command and used for EX attacks (3 levels), simple rock/paper/scissors system with 1.5 damage modifier and some special attacks that cause weakness or slow, but these is no mana or items.)
I'm not telling we should do something similar, but system like this gives me the feeling that there is some tactics involved, while still looking manageable.
But I know that most fun there comes from the fact that opponents are pre-set to create a challenge...
« Last Edit: January 26, 2014, 03:16:41 PM by CherryWood »

Offline Xela

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Re: Battle Engine and Combat
« Reply #16 on: January 26, 2014, 12:36:02 PM »
I recall at least a couple of games with such BE, one of them is Agarest from which I ripped gui elements recently. I can tell you such BE gets boring fast. Every time you have to position yourself, usually in the same way, and battles that would be short in FF-type BE because of difference in levels became unreasonably long.
Also I believe it would be more difficult to code battle AI for such BE.

Jake already has such a set-up with working AI.

What I mean is does Jake's BE able to do such things with minor improvements, or it would be easier to create a new BE.

It should, I can't see why not.

I think you should get yourself familiar with those games I mentioned at least through wikia/youtube, to have a point of view if nothing else. So far you only mentioned that the current supersimple BE is fine for you.

I see little point in going through games until we agree on what kind of BE we're gonna use. We all know what our options are.


Quote
From games with FF style combat like we have now, I kinda liked J-Girls Fight (crimson's H flash game)
http://www.funny-games.biz/j-girl-fight.html
(It have back row (2+2 chr) that is not targetable with melee attacks, special attack gauge (one for entire team) that is increased with normal attack and charge command and used for EX attacks (3 levels), simple rock/paper/scissors system with 1.5 damage modifier and some special attacks that cause weakness or slow, but these is no mana or items.)
I'm not telling we should do something similar, but system like this gives me the feeling that there is some tactics involved, while still looking manageable.

(But I know that most fun there comes from the fact that opponents are pre-set to create a challenge...)

I've played that. Girls you get are very different from the girls you fight against. But even this a semi-professional game.

==============================
I don't get one thing... when we talk about brothel management aspects, we do not reference to Sim-City or Tycoon games. We reference to SM, OW, WM, Sim-Bro. When we talk exploration and BE, we reference to Pro/Semi-Pro games. Why...?

We can barely manage our simple BE with rudimentary exploration system...
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Offline CherryWood

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Re: Battle Engine and Combat
« Reply #17 on: January 26, 2014, 03:51:20 PM »
So.... If we don't want to decide on BE for a while (that's also fine...), are there any plans for warriors besides the guard job for nearest future? (like some automatic fighting)

Offline Xela

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Re: Battle Engine and Combat
« Reply #18 on: January 26, 2014, 04:14:54 PM »
So.... If we don't want to decide on BE for a while (that's also fine...), are there any plans for warriors besides the guard job for nearest future? (like some automatic fighting)

Nope, other than backing up hero in team fights in the Arena, not for the Alpha release.
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Offline DarkTl

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Re: Battle Engine and Combat
« Reply #19 on: January 27, 2014, 05:54:10 AM »
I see little point in going through games until we agree on what kind of BE we're gonna use. We all know what our options are.
Lol, how can we agree if you don't have an opinion? I tell you, play/watch some games, get an opinion, then we'll agree.
The current BE is too boring anyway, so it's not an option.

I don't get one thing... when we talk about brothel management aspects, we do not reference to Sim-City or Tycoon games. We reference to SM, OW, WM, Sim-Bro. When we talk exploration and BE, we reference to Pro/Semi-Pro games. Why...?
Those games are global RTS, they have nothing to do with small brothels. Unlike SM, OW, WM and Sim-Bro, which are already quite popular, so their systems are more or less suitable.

Again, if you have some non-pro games with interesting BE in mind, tell us about them, I'll take a look. If not, why bother mentioning this topic?

Offline Xela

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Re: Battle Engine and Combat
« Reply #20 on: January 27, 2014, 07:54:33 AM »
Lol, how can we agree if you don't have an opinion? I tell you, play/watch some games, get an opinion, then we'll agree.
The current BE is too boring anyway, so it's not an option.

I've seen/played most BE types out there, I see no point in going over iterations with a couple new stats or alignments.

Also, my opinion (as stated many times before), is that BE is not as important as tasks, quests, reactions by in game characters/NPCs on players progress, stat mining and getting new cool shitz like spells and weapons. BE is secondary (given our type of the game), what we have, will imho be enough for a while. I said this plenty of times...

That said, lets say we add: Raws, magical_defense and nature alignment:

Instantly, aside from coding BE itself, we'll have to (or BE would make even less sense that what we have today):

- add alignment to all characters
- add range to all weapons (at least by type)
- add new subclasses to Warrior (Mage, Archer, Healer etc.)
- add the stat obviously
- add per level max cap gains for every battle stat of every subclass (to be tracked separately)
- add team formation screen
- balance out the types so one doesn't eclipse all others


Just to get things to make sense again...

If we take BE from Alkion:

- There is still only one enemy
- Interface is bloody confusing
- AI is AFK
- Only one attack/magical spell and adding new once is a lot harder than to Jake's BE
- Still only a couple of tiles
- No editor for maps
- Steps are still only per tile
- No los/pow in a sense as it is generally understood
- It's as poorly balanced as our BE (prolly worse)
- Tiles are not being cut properly on intersection between different tile-types.

Those games are global RTS, they have nothing to do with small brothels. Unlike SM, OW, WM and Sim-Bro, which are already quite popular, so their systems are more or less suitable.

I meant depth and quality of logic.

Again, if you have some non-pro games with interesting BE in mind, tell us about them, I'll take a look. If not, why bother mentioning this topic?

Someone might know...

I don't get one other thing, you keep trying to get me to play some games, all those BE's can be described in simple generally understood terms and concepts. Can you describe what you would like to see? Another point is that what we need is the mech behind the BE, playing it will give you a feeling for it, not necessarily enable you to create a similar one. If system is so complex that balancing it out will take month, it's not worth it (and don't ask me how long it would take to get it done, I strongly doubt that my math is any better than yours).
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Offline Xela

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Re: Battle Engine and Combat
« Reply #21 on: January 27, 2014, 08:36:36 AM »

Congrats on 1k+ posts btw, I've just noticed :)
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Offline DarkTl

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Re: Battle Engine and Combat
« Reply #22 on: January 27, 2014, 09:33:08 AM »
Also, my opinion (as stated many times before), is that BE is not as important as tasks, quests, reactions by in game characters/NPCs on players progress, stat mining and getting new cool shitz like spells and weapons.
No-no-no, it's just general words again. I mentioned games which have cool ideas in BE, it's your turn now. No matter how unimportant BE, it still should not be boring. As complex as it might be, the BE I'd like to see won't be boring.

- add alignment to all characters
- add range to all weapons (at least by type)
- add new subclasses to Warrior (Mage, Archer, Healer etc.)
- add the stat obviously
- add per level max cap gains for every battle stat of every subclass (to be tracked separately)
- add team formation screen
- balance out the types so one doesn't eclipse all others
Yup, many characters (like in Naruto) have elemental  alignment. Although others don't, so I'm not sure if we need it. I'd say we could give a couple of fire spells to fire alignment chars and forget about it.

Yes we need range weapons if we use rows (I will gladly create them, of course).

Not sure about subclasses. We already have  Warrior and probably Healer occupations, separate battle subclasses are an overkill. Why can't you use both weapon and magic if trained long enough? And we will have schools, manuals, etc. for training.

If you mean mag def stat, we will need it anyway at some piont.

Team formation screen is no big deal compared to Arena  ::)

Don't get this one about types, what types are you talking about?

- AI is AFK
I love that part  :D

I don't get one other thing, you keep trying to get me to play some games, all those BE's can be described in simple generally understood terms and concepts. Can you describe what you would like to see?
I see two options: either continue to use the current FF-type BE, gradually adding new features to make it more interesting, or use something original and created from scratch (and I have no idea what exactly). So unless you or Cherry or someone else has any good ideas for a completly new BE, we have no choice but to use the first option.

We also cannot use 3D BE because of obvious lack of 3D content. So I'd say we should use FF-type BE with those features from other games that can be relatively easy coded and balanced. I have no idea which ones could be coded relatively easy unless you take a look at Jacks' BE closely.

Congrats on 1k+ posts btw, I've just noticed
Thanks. It was a long way  :)

Offline Xela

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Re: Battle Engine and Combat
« Reply #23 on: January 27, 2014, 10:09:56 AM »
No-no-no, it's just general words again. I mentioned games which have cool ideas in BE, it's your turn now. No matter how unimportant BE, it still should not be boring. As complex as it might be, the BE I'd like to see won't be boring.

No, that is actually a clearcut concept where development effort is focused around content, interaction and relaying mechanics into conversations with NPCs and characters. That (as strange as it may sound) requires the same amount of effort as an advanced BE.

Also, there are many ways to make BE fun. Check out CW's Sailor girl screaming FIIIYYA AAAARO on launch :)


Don't get this one about types, what types are you talking about?

I meant subclasses.

I see two options: either continue to use the current FF-type BE, gradually adding new features to make it more interesting, or use something original and created from scratch (and I have no idea what exactly). So unless you or Cherry or someone else has any good ideas for a completly new BE, we have no choice but to use the first option.

We also cannot use 3D BE because of obvious lack of 3D content. So I'd say we should use FF-type BE with those features from other games that can be relatively easy coded and balanced. I have no idea which ones could be coded relatively easy unless you take a look at Jacks' BE closely.

What timeframe are we talking about here? I am personally in favor of movement on a simple grid drawn over battlefield background, rather than rows.

We can't use 3D period. Ren'Py developers are not in any hurry to add 3D rendering to the engine since so few VNs use it (I actually don't know a single one).

Since you have no idea of "what exactly", I suggest we stick with Jake's BE and FF style. Once we've agreed on a timeframe (when we actually add rows or grid), I'll start looking into depth of the engine, likely by merging it with the game (right now it's a separate system with a bridge). That'll take off about a week of our dev time (if not more), but I'll know a lot more about the engine then.
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Offline CherryWood

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Re: Battle Engine and Combat
« Reply #24 on: January 27, 2014, 11:06:18 AM »
I read through the BE forum, and there are bits of code for healing (its basically -damage spell but with different AI when enemy will use it) and weakness spell (changing stats that last for x turns).
We already have a dmg and all-enemy targeting, so If that really works, we should be easily able to make majority of classic skill with it, because they are usually just a variation or combination of these effects.
« Last Edit: January 27, 2014, 11:11:02 AM by CherryWood »

Offline Xela

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Re: Battle Engine and Combat
« Reply #25 on: January 27, 2014, 11:28:48 AM »
I read through the BE forum, and there are bits of code for healing (its basically -damage spell but with different AI when enemy will use it) and weakness spell (changing stats that last for x turns).
We already have a dmg and all-enemy targeting, so If that really works, we should be easily able to make majority of classic skill with it, because they are usually just a variation or combination of these effects.

Yeap, but the trick is figuring out how integrate BE into PyTFall or/if add rows. Preferably without breaking other schemes. Question now is to decide when to start messing with BE, I'll have couple of hour free tonight, I was planning on taking a look at girlsmeets and maybe put in a new location (like beach) but if we can make a final decision to stick with FF styled BE, I'd love to start digging into that code :)
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Offline Xela

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Re: Battle Engine and Combat
« Reply #26 on: January 27, 2014, 02:01:49 PM »
http://pyromancers.com/dungeon-painter-online/

Wow???

I recon we can use something like this...
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Offline Xela

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Re: Battle Engine and Combat
« Reply #27 on: January 27, 2014, 05:45:13 PM »
I covered 30 - 40% of the BE code and did some prototyping:



Line of sight works.
Range for weapons and magic works.
Both Automatic and Manual camera work.
Movement works.
AI tries to kill you and magical AI even attempted to keep distance and hurl fireballs at us.
I think we can have get sprites automatically facing to right or left.
etc...

There is no FogOfWar in the engine whats so ever.

It will be relatively easy to add Mdef stat, very easy to have BE take into account alignments. I am not going to attempt merging it into PyTFall until Beta or maybe even until 1.0. I have some ideas on how to add rows but I haven't covered all parts of code to figure out how difficult that will actually be.

That's all for tonight.
« Last Edit: January 27, 2014, 05:50:03 PM by Xela »
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Offline DarkTl

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Re: Battle Engine and Combat
« Reply #28 on: January 28, 2014, 01:20:15 AM »
Looks cool. Although there could be a problem with battle sprites position, like when character and monster are fighing while turned their backs to each other.

Offline Xela

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Re: Battle Engine and Combat
« Reply #29 on: January 28, 2014, 01:36:40 AM »
Looks cool. Although there could be a problem with battle sprites position, like when character and monster are fighing while turned their backs to each other.

I think we can have get sprites automatically facing to right or left.

I "think" that fog of war can be added but it'll be tricky. Even more difficult will be adding maps from a proper editor like Tiled. Basically that was simply a very large picture made with the site from the post above. We'd have to block every tile or assign events to it by hand.

-------------------
It was just prototyping, I doubt we'll be using that any time soon on a large scale. Maybe single large map for some dungeon outside the city as an easter egg or quest to capture/save one of the unique girls.
« Last Edit: January 28, 2014, 01:56:05 AM by Xela »
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