devolution

Author Topic: A few suggestions...  (Read 28428 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline DocClox

  • Dev Team
  • *****
  • Posts: 1867
  • Messing Around With Python
Re: A few suggestions...
« Reply #30 on: March 04, 2010, 04:56:18 AM »
Trying to get a neutral tone for the PC is an interesting problem. As I see it, he's always going to be a bit of a hard case, since he's capable of defeating a half dozen ganglords and buiding and maintaining a sex-industry empire in a city like Crossgate. You can't do that if you're too much of a fluffy bunny.

On the other hand, I don't see any reason why he has to be a thug, and so I try and give him a bit of wit and charm. Admittedly, the clip above gets a bit "Blackadder-and-Baldrick" in places, but overall it's the tone I'd like to see the PC adopt in most cases: He's tough, he's intelligent, he has a sense of humour and he's equally capable of acts of compassion, kindness and sudden, callous brutality, depending on the circumstances. And how the player plays him, of course.

Changing the default tone is something I'd like to be possible, but it would be a pain. We'd need to extract all the dialog from the game and put it in configs, and to sort out $PARAMETERS for all the names involved in an exchange. Probably pronouns as well in case someone wants to play the PC as a girl.

That said, I expect most of the dialog will end up in scripts anyway, so it might not be that bad.

Offline Mehzerz

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 564
  • Rockin' the after life after party
Re: A few suggestions...
« Reply #31 on: March 04, 2010, 07:07:41 AM »
I think for convenience sake... and to make things simpler (for the time being) setting a general tone would be the best course of action. I really like how you and a few others in that thread showed his personality. I've never seen a lead character like that in a video game. So, even though he's a hard case, and intolerant to "disgusting little toads" he can still be kind and compassionate. In the end the user decides his actions anyways. 


I can't wait for some morally confusing decisions... or decisions that seem right at first but end up working against you. Decisions in the Bioware games are always pretty easy to discern, if you want to be good you just pick the most obvious good choice, for bad the bad one. I'd like to see some not so "obvious" choices in this game. We do have some pretty talented writers on this board... IT CAN HAPPEN.
Starter girls image additions progress:
26 girls, 18 to go

Offline fixet

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 167
Re: A few suggestions...
« Reply #32 on: March 04, 2010, 09:43:01 AM »
I might be alone in this, but I'd prefer the pc to be "characterless"

as in, don't force a character on him at all. don't have him say anything outside player choices
I think it would be better to mold his character from his actions, rather than the way he forms his sentences
so, instead of the whole "disgusting little toad" thing just say: "declare war" and be done with it

just give us things we can do, and let our imagination do the rest
more "talk" actions, operations, jobs, and moneyless customer type events would be far more appreciated and enjoyed on my side
forcing a personality on my character is not something I like to see in games

edit: re-reading this, I'm not sure I expressed myself right
I am not saying to scrap scripted events or anything, what I mean is, leave the player character as he is
so, instead of personalizing player choices, make them the same as the customer event
"let him go"
"let him go but tell your men to follow him"
"kidnap his wife"
"kidnap his daughter"

describe what the pc is doing, and not how he is doing it
focus on the possibilities the character has, instead of the who the character is
« Last Edit: March 04, 2010, 10:03:44 AM by fixet »

Offline OvdS

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 14
Re: A few suggestions...
« Reply #33 on: March 04, 2010, 10:16:56 AM »
I would agree with fixet on this.
But if you would like to add the alignment at all, just make it mandatory to select an alignment in the beginning and only allow actions according to this allignment (e.g. a good charakter can not use torture) or at best on the edge (and force a change of allignment, if the the character often choses to act out of allignment).

Offline zodiac44

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 560
  • Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn
Re: A few suggestions...
« Reply #34 on: March 04, 2010, 01:59:54 PM »
The system is set up now so that the actions you take determine your alignment, not that your alignment restricts the actions you can take.  It doesn't work perfectly now, but eventually it will).

Examining your suggestion in further detail, it would be interesting to make this a difficulty setting.  If the player chooses a "good" alignment which restricts the actions he can take (presumably, no torture, kidnapping, extortion, slave-binding, or other illegal and/or immoral activities, perhaps even prohibiting slave ownership), this might make the game tangibly more difficult to play.  It would also give script writers a bit of freedom, in that the PC's alignment could be a condition to trigger a script (ie. have a script that triggers only for evil PC's) or trigger alternative options to resolve the script (present one tree for evil, one tree for good).  This also has the side benefit that script writers don't have to consider the magnitude of the effect a given action would have on the PC's alignment, since the alignment is a fixed choice.
Capitalization is the difference between "I had to help my uncle Jack off a horse" and "I had to help my uncle jack off a horse."

Offline Mehzerz

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 564
  • Rockin' the after life after party
Re: A few suggestions...
« Reply #35 on: March 04, 2010, 02:01:35 PM »
I can understand why you'd like the PC to be this way... I'd perfer a character that says stuff but to each his own I suppose.


It'd certainly be easier to write events since there is no personality. But they'll seem more hollow in my opinion, for instance the Docs event from above.
Blank slate PC:
"One of your squad leaders tells you of a possible business proposition. The manager of the city's bedlam-house is running short of room, and wants to talk to you about possible options for 'care in the community'"

A: Not interested (ENDS)
B: Talk to him

"You agree to a meeting on neutral territory, and are introduced to Doctor Thaddeus Nutt, proprietor of the Crossgate Bedlam Estate, known to your patrons as 'The Nutt House'. Nutt is a coarse, grubby little man, and the prospects of his actually  holding a doctorate seem highly unlikely. Nevertheless, having gone this far, it costs nothing to hear the man out"

Nutt: "Evening, your worship. Dunno how much your man here told you, but I'm developing a bit of a crisis in the cash-flow and accommodation areas. All down to the increasing strains of the modern lifestyle, I'm thinking..."

PC: Allow him to continue...

Nutt: "Well, your eminence, I had heard that a man in your line of work was always looking for new talent, so to speak. And I happen to have some charming young ladies what I need to find new homes for. So I thought maybe we might be in a position to do each other a power of good, see?"

PC: Continue.

Nutt: "Well, I had thought you might be able to sell their bodies, chief. Thing is... " Nutt looks around furtively and drops his voice "... thing is, our two lines of business has more in common that most people might think.  Looking after a house full of headcases don't generate that much in the way of revenue, see? So if some young buck has a highly experimental therapy he wants to perfect, and if he's willing to make a small charitable donation to the running of the estate, then we lets him into the patient's quarters and we leaves them alone for an hour or so.

Nutt: "Purely as a matter of professional courtesy, we doesn't enquire too closely as to the nature of the therapeutic procedure, although from observing the after effects I would be forced to conclude that a great many in the medical profession think highly of the healing effects of sexual stimulation."

OPTIONS:

A: Declare War
B: Find out more
C: Terminate the discussion

A: Declare War

OPTION: At this point, if the PC has a seriously badass rep, Nutt will try and cave. If the PC lets him surrender, he gains control of a mental institute outside Crossgate, which will open a new supply of girls, but which may prove a decidedly mixed blessing in the medium to long term.

We continue on the assumption that the PCs rep isn't up the challenge, or that the PC prefers to crush Dr. Nutt like a bug.

Nutt: "Here, I don't think I like how this is going! I came here in good faith thinking we could do business."

Nutt: Backing away hastily "You won't take me down easily! You're not the first to try it on, you know!"

END: Nutt appears as a new (and somewhat underpowered) rival. The Nutt House is built to be defended, and his guards are reasonably well trained, but he is unlikely to cause problems beyond a turn or two. Player acquires control of the Nutt House, with all the pros and cons that entails.

Backing up to "Find Out More"

Nutt: "Mental health shouldn't be a problem; just treat them like any other slavegirl"

Nutt: "All our inmates are branded when we take charge of them. It's a power of attorney sort of thing. Means they can't raise legal objections to various treatments that while distasteful, may prove essential to the ultimate rehabilitation of the patient."

PC: "That would be 'distasteful' in the narrow, technical sense of  'being gang raped by a half dozen bored dilettantes from up on Nobbs Hill,' I take it?"

Nutt: "Well, I'm not aware of anyone who chooses to frame their research objectives in those precise terms, obviously, although... "

PC: "Ask him if he's a slaver"

Nutt: "Oh NO, sir! Oh no, no, no, no, no! The slave tattoo is purely a legal formality. As well as providing  a useful tracking mechanism, should one of our poor lost lambs manage to stray beyond our walls, of course."

PC: "ask about a third party"

Nutt: "Then I would obviously hope that said party would uphold the ethical responsibilities that go along with the bond of slavery. In the unlikely event that the party chose to ignore those responsibilities and maximally exercise his rights under law, I would obviously be deeply shocked. Shocked and appalled, in fact..."

Nutt: " If truth be told. That's always assuming that word of the arrangement gets out, sir, which I don't see any reason why it should, if I may say so."

PC: "Question the mental health of the girls"

Nutt: "Oh, they're gone in the head all right, but that needn't stop you making a profit. Just chain them spread-eagled to the bed and let your patrons get on with it. You might need to stop the gobs on some of them, maybe tie a sack over their heads as well, but at the end of the day, quim is quim sir, as I'm sure you'll agree."

Nutt: "They won't be very skilled, so drop your price and make it up in volume. You'll make your costs back in three months, tops. Plus, you never know when you might need meat to get fucked by a viras plant, or a plaything for your soldiers where it doesn't matter too much if it gets broken ..."

Options:
A: Declare war.
B: Leave.
C: Accept Proposal with Nutt still in charge.
D: Take the girls from him and give them a better life. (?) Closest thing I could think of. Right off.

Option A reverts back to the earlier Declare War case.
Option B leaves the door open for the PC to change his mind. In the meantime, Nutt may be expected to do business elsewhere, and the PCs rivals may receive some small bonuses.
Option C costs a lot of cash, but puts the PC in control of the Nutt House with Nutt as managing director. This gets most of the benefits of seizing the place by force, and few of the drawbacks since Nutt is experienced at navigating the political minefield of mental healthcare in Crossgate.

Option D gets the PC major disposition and suss bonuses if done right:

Nutt: "Good luck with that *cough*Bless you guv'nor, I knew you was on the side of the angels, right from the start, I did. You is only doing what I would do if only I had the finance for it, and it is a sad, sad indictment on the state of the world today that..."

PC(A): See him out.
PC(B): Demand he leave.

(A)
Nutt: "Oh, right, right right. Busy man, busy man. Thank you for your time." He walks out with a grin on his face.
(B)
Nutt: "Yes sir. Getting out now, sir."



Probably not exact. But you get my point. In a way I agree with you, in another I don't. I suppose I'll leave it to the majority and leave it at that.
Starter girls image additions progress:
26 girls, 18 to go

exodia91

  • Guest
Re: A few suggestions...
« Reply #36 on: March 04, 2010, 03:58:36 PM »
Making it mandatory to select a good or evil alignment and forcing the player to only use certain actions wouldn't make the game more difficult, it would just piss people off. Its exceedingly simple to make money as good or evil, so all this would accomplish is to anger people that they can't make a choice they want to.

Writing a character without personality is supposed to be hollow, this allows the player to fill in the blanks themselves. Ever play The legend of Zelda? Link has the personality of a brick. The few times they tried to give him a personality (that motherfucking cartoon) it crashed and burned, then blew up in their faces.

Also, that has to be the corniest writing I have ever seen. I mean honestly, could that character be any more over the top ridiculous. This is a game where you're given the option of brutally torturing people to death, write the characters with at least a little seriousness. If you're gonna make him a sniveling little toad fine, but that's just.... Comedy level ridiculous. And why the fuck is he talking like he's out of Oliver twist or something.

Offline delta224

  • Dev Team
  • *****
  • Posts: 577
Re: A few suggestions...
« Reply #37 on: March 04, 2010, 04:03:02 PM »
I would not prefer an official alignment system for the fact it would be a pain to code properly not to piss off some people. 

Offline Mehzerz

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 564
  • Rockin' the after life after party
Re: A few suggestions...
« Reply #38 on: March 04, 2010, 04:17:54 PM »
Well exodia... please enlighten me in what you think would make for a well written character.
« Last Edit: March 04, 2010, 04:21:02 PM by Mehzerz »
Starter girls image additions progress:
26 girls, 18 to go

exodia91

  • Guest
Re: A few suggestions...
« Reply #39 on: March 04, 2010, 08:09:01 PM »
Well, I'll rewrite your rewrite and show how I personally would portray this side character. Also, I'm petitioning for being able to name the player character. If he's gonna be a hollow player avatar, we need to be able to name him to support the illusion that the player is him. Also makes it much easier to refer to him in events. Need a call <playername> function though.



"One of your squad leaders tells you of a possible business proposition. The manager of the city's mental ward is running short of room, and wants to talk to you about possible options for 'care in the community'"

A: Not interested (ENDS)
B: Talk to him

"You agree to a meeting on neutral territory, and are introduced to the manager of the ward. He turns out to be a coarse, grubby little man. Nevertheless, having gone this far, you suppose it costs nothing to hear the man out"

Manager: "Good evening, Mr.<playername>. Dunno how much your man here told you, but I've got a bit of a crisis in the cash-flow and accommodation areas, you see.... All down to the increasing strains of the modern lifestyle, I'm thinking..."

PC: Allow him to continue...

Manager: "Well, err... you see, I had heard that a man in your line of work was always looking for 'new talent', so to speak... And I happen to have some charming young ladies that... err..  need to find new homes. So I thought maybe we might be in a position to arrange a ... errr.. 'mutually beneficial agreement', see?"

PC: "Continue."

Manager: "Well, I had thought you might be able to uhh... put them to work. Thing is... " He looks around furtively and drops his voice "... thing is, our two lines of business has more in common that most people might think.  Looking after a house full of headcases don't generate that much in the way of revenue, see? So if some young buck has a uh.... erm... 'highly experimental therapy' he wants to perfect, and if he's willing to make a... small charitable donation to the running of the estate, then we might allow him into the patient's quarters and leave them alone for an hour or so."


OPTIONS:

A: Declare War
B: Find out more
C: Terminate the discussion

A: Declare War

OPTION: At this point, if the PC has a seriously badass rep, the manager will try and cave. If the PC lets him surrender, he gains control of a mental institute outside Crossgate, which will open a new supply of girls, but which may prove a decidedly mixed blessing in the medium to long term.

We continue on the assumption that the PCs rep isn't up the challenge, or that the PC prefers to crush him like a bug.

Manager: "Here, I don't think I like how this is going! I came here in good faith thinking we could do business."

Manager: He backs away hastily "You won't take me down easily! You're not the first to try it, you know!"

END: Manager appears as a new (and somewhat underpowered) rival. The Mental ward is built to be defended, and his guards are reasonably well trained, but he is unlikely to cause problems beyond a turn or two. Player acquires control of the ward, with all the pros and cons that entails.

Backing up to "Find Out More"


Manager: "The girls shouldn't be a problem, all our patients are branded when we take charge of them. It's a power of attorney sort of thing. Means they can't raise legal objections to various treatments that while distasteful, may prove essential to the ultimate rehabilitation of the patient."

PC: Ask him if he's a slaver

Manager: "Oh NO, sir! Oh no, no, no, no, no! The slave tattoo is purely a legal formality. As well as providing  a useful tracking mechanism, should one of our poor lost lambs manage to stray beyond our walls, of course."

PC: Ask about a third party managing the girls.

Manager: "Then I would obviously hope that said party would uphold the ethical responsibilities that go along with the bond of slavery. In the unlikely event that the party chose to ignore those responsibilities and maximally exercise his rights under law, I would obviously be deeply shocked. Shocked and appalled, in fact... If truth be told. That's always assuming that word of the arrangement gets out, sir, which I don't see any reason why it should, if I may say so."

PC: Question the mental health of the girls

Manager: "Oh, they're gone in the head all right, but that needn't stop you making a profit. You might need to find ways to keep a few of 'em quite, and a couple might need restraints or such, but a man in err.. your line of business could surely find a use for 'em, one way or another."


Options:
A: Declare war.
B: Leave.
C: Accept Proposal with the manager still in charge.
D: Take the girls and put them under your care. (allow this option if the player has a high good rep)

Option A reverts back to the earlier Declare War case.
Option B leaves the door open for the PC to change his mind. In the meantime, the manager may be expected to do business elsewhere, and the PCs rivals may receive some small bonuses.
Option C costs a lot of cash, but puts the PC in control of the ward with the manager still in place. This gets most of the benefits of seizing the place by force, and few of the drawbacks since the manager is experienced at navigating the political minefield of mental healthcare in Crossgate.

Option D gets the PC major disposition and suss bonuses if done right:

Manager: "Well.. err, good luck with that *coughs* You're only doing what I would do if only I had the finances for it, and it is a sad, sad indictment on the state of the world today that....."*trails off feebly*

PC(A): See him out.
PC(B): Demand he leave.

(A)
Manager: "Oh, right, right. Busy man, busy man. Thank you for your time." He walks out with a grin on his face.
(B)
Manager: "Yes sir. Getting out now, sir."



Now see, the character wasn't written badly, just the ridiculous accents that popped in and out, the bad puns... trim it and some unnecessary dialog out and you have a respectable, mostly same character with none of the corniness.... seriously though Doc, did you just watch Olliver Twist or something when you wrote this?
« Last Edit: March 04, 2010, 08:11:43 PM by exodia91 »

Offline DocClox

  • Dev Team
  • *****
  • Posts: 1867
  • Messing Around With Python
Re: A few suggestions...
« Reply #40 on: March 05, 2010, 02:26:21 AM »
Quote
seriously though Doc, did you just watch Olliver Twist or something when you wrote this?

Ever see any "Blackadder"? Nutt is basically Baldric. Not intentionally (I was kind of feverish when I wrote it) but looking back on it, I even imagined him looking the part.

Failing that, if you want a Dickensian equivalent, think "Uriah Heep". (Not the 70s metal band).
« Last Edit: March 06, 2010, 08:11:02 AM by DocClox »

Offline Zeus

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 108
Re: A few suggestions...
« Reply #41 on: March 05, 2010, 12:28:34 PM »
Blackadder... i love it! (saw it first time in English with German sub on TV.) now i have it in german Dub on my PC... one of the best work from Rowan! Like it more than mister bean... "I shall be known from that on the Black Vegetable" (mh... in german he says Black Currant... and... now i hear (thx to Two audio files English and german ^-^) that in the german audio are this Can laughts played... gnaaa... )


okay ... back to topic.... aeh i can't say anything to the topic ^^
why fear 6 7? 7 8 9! (just say it loud and you understand ... mh... jokes you have to explain are crap... Sorry ^^)

Offline altereggo

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 14
Re: A few suggestions...
« Reply #42 on: March 05, 2010, 09:40:37 PM »

Offline Mr.R

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 8
Re: A few suggestions...
« Reply #43 on: March 09, 2010, 10:53:16 PM »

exodia91

  • Guest
Re: A few suggestions...
« Reply #44 on: March 10, 2010, 01:26:23 AM »
Just gotta love the huge newbie first posts which suggest things that have already been suggested twice. Or is already in the works to be implemented. If it weren't a huge pain, I would compile a huge list of already been suggested crap. Seriously people, register, hang around for a bit, read threads, get to know how the project is going and whats up, THEN make huge suggestion posts.