Author Topic: New items concept  (Read 20150 times)

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Offline Xela

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Re: New items concept
« Reply #45 on: January 18, 2015, 07:29:53 PM »
Items with mechanics =/= Mechanics related to items.

No sh!t :)

But I've stated a lot of items mechanics as well and it should be noted that "Mechanics related to items" can mess up added items logic or require more work/hours (like the auto-equip method adds a lot of work for some simple addons which we previously discussed).
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Offline DarkTl

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Re: New items concept
« Reply #46 on: January 19, 2015, 10:00:48 AM »
- Almost no mins. I had to cut most of them off (same goes for traits), because there were multiple problems with them in the game, according to you.

- Skills=stats in terms of players logic, since they are numbers that can be changed via training and items, and should be as high as possible when possible.

- What traits do? They used for checks, they change stats and add/remove effects. Effects change stats too, just in a bit unusual way. But we cannot afford a lot of checks for a lot of traits (see new traits concept thread, yeah). So absolute majority of traits will change stats only.

- Spells right now are close to useless without good, interesting and distinctive BE, or at least SE where AI use spells.
Because we don't even have spells outside of BE, even though there could be dozens of spells, like healing and buffs.

Almost everything that items do they do with stats. Moreover, they do it strictly predictable, with no side effects or possible danger involved (something that wm has).

When I'm talking about unique items, I imagine stuff like, for example, containers (whether it summoning amulet or stasis chamber on icon) that give you random or unique characters.

Offline Xela

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Re: New items concept
« Reply #47 on: January 19, 2015, 02:10:30 PM »
- Almost no mins. I had to cut most of them off (same goes for traits), because there were multiple problems with them in the game, according to you.

True, this is limited for a number of reasons.

- Skills=stats in terms of players logic, since they are numbers that can be changed via training and items, and should be as high as possible when possible.

Not true, systems are very, very different.

- What traits do? They used for checks, they change stats and add/remove effects. Effects change stats too, just in a bit unusual way. But we cannot afford a lot of checks for a lot of traits (see new traits concept thread, yeah). So absolute majority of traits will change stats only.

They can also exclude one-another and change stats, skills in very different manners.

- Spells right now are close to useless without good, interesting and distinctive BE, or at least SE where AI use spells.
Because we don't even have spells outside of BE, even though there could be dozens of spells, like healing and buffs.

That's a whole other concept.

Almost everything that items do they do with stats. Moreover, they do it strictly predictable, with no side effects or possible danger involved (something that wm has).

That's true in part, in WM they can drug the character, add bad traits. But that's fairly similar to what our Effects do, we can add Drugged effect or a couple of these kind of effects. But WM does one thing really smart, they do not report item effects in a table, they just hint on effects in the description unless I forgot.

When I'm talking about unique items, I imagine stuff like, for example, containers (whether it summoning amulet or stasis chamber on icon) that give you random or unique characters.

Maybe... it's actually not that hard to code in. We just need to create event labels and run them when item is consumed. But same thing can be done with events system... we had that for a while and noone really created a single unique event to get a character.
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Offline DarkTl

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Re: New items concept
« Reply #48 on: January 19, 2015, 03:02:56 PM »
we had that for a while and noone really created a single unique event to get a character.
When I imagine a decent special event to get a character (other than unique girlmeet), it always involves exploration or battle. At the current level it will look pathetic at best.
So dialogues is all you can count on (or rather monologues, since MC is silent), maybe little quests like collect something x 10.

Though I have my hands absolutely full with retagging, items, traits and girlmeets  ::)

Offline Xela

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Re: New items concept
« Reply #49 on: January 19, 2015, 03:17:32 PM »
When I imagine a decent special event to get a character (other than unique girlmeet), it always involves exploration or battle. At the current level it will look pathetic at best.
So dialogues is all you can count on (or rather monologues, since MC is silent), maybe little quests like collect something x 10.

Might be a failure of imagination on your part, they build entire games with just the dialogue :)

Game has an insane number of opportunities, locations and battle setups. Most do require knowledge of the code but noone ever asked me anything in that department either except CW.

Though I have my hands absolutely full with retagging, items, traits and girlmeets  ::)

Very true, this requires a lot of time. Hopefully we'll get something that will last at least a few releases this time, if not till the 1.0.

I am going to get the height method together, set the default to "average" and maybe add some more stuff to items.
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Offline Xela

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Re: New items concept
« Reply #50 on: January 19, 2015, 06:23:50 PM »
Though I have my hands absolutely full with retagging, items, traits and girlmeets  ::)

And please don't do anything for items yet... there are still some fields under question.
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Offline DarkTl

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Re: New items concept
« Reply #51 on: January 19, 2015, 11:53:01 PM »
We lack exploration, not even as an engine, but as an option. You can only go to some usual location and look for something there.
Thus it's impossible to truly hide something in order for players to search for it or even chance upon.

Yeah, I guess you could hide something via SE. But it has nothing to do with MC (= player himself), since your girls will find it automatically and behind scenes.

Offline DarkTl

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Re: New items concept
« Reply #52 on: January 20, 2015, 07:23:18 AM »
Very true, this requires a lot of time. Hopefully we'll get something that will last at least a few releases this time, if not till the 1.0.
I'm not really sure if it possible to add something to tag system at least. We already have all available decent pics in packs, and if it's possible to find more somewhere, it would require a huge amount of time. Same goes for tags, even if we add some new categories, pictures for them are too rare to be widely used.

Offline Xela

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Re: New items concept
« Reply #53 on: January 20, 2015, 08:28:02 AM »
We lack exploration, not even as an engine, but as an option. You can only go to some usual location and look for something there.

I am not sure what you mean with "option", we have engines, you've seen Jake's engine possibilities, you've seen the pseudo3D thing and now there is an example of rpg-maker like engine in the cookbook that runs really, really well, not mentioning Alkions design and my ancient walkabout. But any of these will require insane amount of effort, time and resource. I doubt that we'll have proper exploration until post 1.0.

Thus it's impossible to truly hide something in order for players to search for it or even chance upon.

Yeah, I guess you could hide something via SE. But it has nothing to do with MC (= player himself), since your girls will find it automatically and behind scenes.

Matter of opinion, people manage excellent quests, events in faaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaar simpler designs than ours. SM for once... they have insane amount of on map content in a simpler map while many of the request/events do not even deal with st goals at all but add stats/skills/experience/items and etc.

Hiding...
- How about a barely visible button masking itself in the background?
- Or have all but one (or just all) characters from a specific origin?
- Or only after specific day (157)?
- Or to appear after a certain level, stat(s), skill(s) have been reached?
- Or on the full moon?
- Or only on Wednesday?
- Or only when a specific item(s) is equipped?
- Or only after some unique interaction with the character?
- Or SE... they will not find anything if you only add the item to the location after/during a quest/event.
- Or taking a specific place in the Arena ladders.
- Or, or, or, or... conditions are limitless, whatever you want to hide, will be hidden unless they are fulfilled.

Even with the most basic VN tools and a couple of characters, people make awesome games with events, multi-endings, choices and etc. This "one thing is missing because we don't have "IT", (this one last thing that we need to kick ass) :D" is bs and an excuse. With a bit of imagination and effort, possibilities are already endless.
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I'm not really sure if it possible to add something to tag system at least. We already have all available decent pics in packs, and if it's possible to find more somewhere, it would require a huge amount of time. Same goes for tags, even if we add some new categories, pictures for them are too rare to be widely used.

You're prolly right or at least I hope that you are :)

==============================================
On items front... should we add fields like "battleready" or even a separate slot for items that we want to add to BE. I am sick of the items code, going to take a look at BE for while, see if I now have enough skill to understand it better so interface can be improved and maybe some new options added or at the very least, make the life simpler for me in the future.

Otherwise, maybe I can take a shot at building out own simple BE.
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Offline DarkTl

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Re: New items concept
« Reply #54 on: January 20, 2015, 09:28:40 AM »
I am not sure what you mean with "option", we have engines, you've seen Jake's engine possibilities, you've seen the pseudo3D thing and now there is an example of rpg-maker like engine in the cookbook that runs really, really well, not mentioning Alkions design and my ancient walkabout.
You think we can use Jake's engine possibilities? No we don't unless he also has tons of graphic resources that we will never be able to obtain for free.
SE is our best bet.

- Or, or, or, or... conditions are limitless, whatever you want to hide, will be hidden unless they are fulfilled.
Pixel hunting is a bad thing even in pure quest games, and should be prosecuted  ::)

I'm not talking about hiding events. I mean items and places. Can you find an ancient artifact or an abandoned temple in the middle of a street or two meters away from the city, even on the full moon? Maybe once, but not all the time.
So we need SE, and a well developed one (not one location without any maps at all, yeah).

Otherwise, maybe I can take a shot at building out own simple BE.
I don't know what to do with BE. I don't want to use our current one, that's for sure. Either it has to be heavily modified, or we need a new one.

Offline Xela

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Re: New items concept
« Reply #55 on: January 20, 2015, 09:38:26 AM »
I don't know what to do with BE. I don't want to use our current one, that's for sure. Either it has to be heavily modified, or we need a new one.

How? I want to put some time into this tonight, what do you think we should do? And what kind of BE do you see in PyTFall?

There are two options the way I see it:

1) Modify Jakes BE to jump through our hoops, I am looking into it right now.

Pros:
- Core and main loop are ready.
- We can get normal RPG battle scheme and move about battle scheme like the mockup if you run pytfall.arena.test() in the console.

Cons:
- It's fairly advanced and complicated engine due to a large amount of possible schemes so it is hard to develop.

2) Create our own:

Pros:
- We can do what we like with it.

Cons:
- Starting from scratch and multiple schemes will be a real pain in the butt.
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Offline DarkTl

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Re: New items concept
« Reply #56 on: January 20, 2015, 09:51:27 AM »
For a start, it is just as alien concept as wm traits were before I reworked them. Now we can have thousands of traits as long as they only change stats and skills, none of them will need new checks and almost all existing chracters are covered (some are not, but they would require special scripting anyway, no matter what we do with traits).

What Jakes BE requires from us?
- Rare, wide backgrounds.
- Animated spells with side view (not common too).
- Battle sprites (we can easily use portraits and lose nothing).
Meanwhile I don't think it supports rows  ;)

Offline Xela

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Re: New items concept
« Reply #57 on: January 20, 2015, 10:04:25 AM »
I hate portraits in battle-engines. It doesn't support rows, no. Animated spells should be a must, it does not require an animation. You can do with a sounds, some default or nothing at all I expect.

The rpg type BE I actually really like and don't believe it to be foreign at all.
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Offline DarkTl

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Re: New items concept
« Reply #58 on: January 20, 2015, 10:17:47 AM »
I see you avoided backgrounds question  :)
But our best bg (for arena) is custom made. There will be no more, at least from the same person.

Offline Xela

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Re: New items concept
« Reply #59 on: January 20, 2015, 10:50:07 AM »
I see you avoided backgrounds question  :)
But our best bg (for arena) is custom made. There will be no more, at least from the same person.

Just forgot. We'll find backgrounds, I don't worry about that. I am done with work for today, going to take a break and start looking into BE options.
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