devolution

Author Topic: Stats Concept  (Read 21875 times)

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Offline Xela

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Re: Stats Concept
« Reply #30 on: November 22, 2014, 11:00:22 AM »
In that case we should also remove traits from fragile to athletic because we have constitution. Probably some other traits, like broken and iron will (character), dawdler and energetic (agility).

However, stats are not nearly as good in describing character as traits. While it's difficult to do with charisma part, levels of constitution and intelligence are usually obvious for any character. How are we supposed to describe genius character with the current leveling system? Set int to max? There won't be any difference after a couple of levels.

I agree, there is some another options but they all lead to some silly mechanics...

We need to figure out a way to handle unique cases, fragile trait for example really stands out in WM. Having both traits and stats basically doing the same damn thing is not useful, we need to either come up with a way to combine them into one concept (traits being removed on stats reaching specific value for example) or do the right thing (what you said, removing traits that basically suggest some stat value for any character in relationship to all other characters).
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Offline DarkTl

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Re: Stats Concept
« Reply #31 on: November 22, 2014, 11:56:18 AM »
Traits could affect leveling process, for example usual character gets 4 points per level to max int, retarded 1 and genius 8.

Offline Xela

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Re: Stats Concept
« Reply #32 on: November 22, 2014, 12:13:37 PM »
Traits could affect leveling process, for example usual character gets 4 points per level to max int, retarded 1 and genius 8.

That's an options as well, isn't hard to code either (like at all).
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Offline DarkTl

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Re: Stats Concept
« Reply #33 on: November 22, 2014, 12:29:53 PM »
Ok, then instead of current system, when traits effects apply gradually depending on level, we need system when traits modify leveling values for stats and maybe skills.

Offline Xela

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Re: Stats Concept
« Reply #34 on: November 22, 2014, 12:51:22 PM »
Ok, then instead of current system, when traits effects apply gradually depending on level, we need system when traits modify leveling values for stats and maybe skills.

One doesn't exclude the other. Current system makes perfect sense in most cases. It's the traits that suggest relative stats values are the problem!

I'll look into adding new option for the traits (how they mod the level during level-up). Right now I am trying to build in a retrieval mechanism for girls caught during SE.
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Offline DarkTl

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Re: Stats Concept
« Reply #35 on: November 22, 2014, 01:43:46 PM »
Yeah, but logic becomes too complicated without a good reason. Instead of old system (I believe we implement 1/100 of mod stat per level) let's use, let's say, level_mod, level_min and level_max variables, and every time just add then during level ups.
I don't really see difference between adding 1/100 of 100 luck per level and just adding 1 luck per level, except the latter one is simplier to explain, track and understand.

Ideally, we could control how often the trait works. For example, +1 max every 3 levels and +2 mod every level.

Offline CherryWood

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Re: Stats Concept
« Reply #36 on: November 22, 2014, 02:11:15 PM »
Can't traits like "genius" just increase the max level of stat that girl can ever reach? Like, if the value of intelligence for normal girl at her maximum level would be capped at 300, "genius" girl could reach 400. 

btw. if we convert most of the important stuff to skills, do we still need to have experience levels? Wouldn't a skill progression system be better? (increase skills by doing them without being limited by exp maximums)

EDIT: just forget about this, I'm thinking nonsense again
« Last Edit: November 22, 2014, 02:45:19 PM by CherryWood »

Offline DarkTl

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Re: Stats Concept
« Reply #37 on: November 22, 2014, 02:15:35 PM »
Can't traits like "genius" just increase the max level of stat that girl can ever reach? Like, if the value of intelligence for normal girl at her maximum level would be capped at 300, "genius" girl could reach 400. 


btw. if we convert most of the important stuff to skills, do we still need to have levels?
I think we don't have max level. Players can grind and level up as long as they want to.
And maybe skills should be limited by level as well.
Still there are plenty of things that increase over level ups. Health and mp for instance.

Wouldn't a skill progression system be better? (increase skills by doing them without being limited by exp maximums)
Maybe. I don't mind either way.
« Last Edit: November 22, 2014, 02:20:08 PM by DarkTl »

Offline Xela

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Re: Stats Concept
« Reply #38 on: November 22, 2014, 03:17:21 PM »
Yeah, but logic becomes too complicated without a good reason. Instead of old system (I believe we implement 1/100 of mod stat per level) let's use, let's say, level_mod, level_min and level_max variables, and every time just add then during level ups.
I don't really see difference between adding 1/100 of 100 luck per level and just adding 1 luck per level, except the latter one is simplier to explain, track and understand.

Ideally, we could control how often the trait works. For example, +1 max every 3 levels and +2 mod every level.

But in this case, there is a good reason, isn't there. Current system fits really well with most traits.

"Old" system worked like WM system, just added a mod to the stat. We expanded it to add 10% of the mod every five levels.

Max/Min values are being applied whenever the trait is applied.

lvl_max I don't want to change under any conditions, there is also no reason to do so. Max value we can work with.

So... basically, you we can narrow it down to:

mod: {"stat": [every_so_many_levels, value]}
max: {"stat": [every_so_many_levels, value]}

Problem with this:

How do we handle cumulative effects from the traits? This can really mess up the game. If there are multiple traits, modding the same stats, it can become chaos really quickly.

Can't traits like "genius" just increase the max level of stat that girl can ever reach? Like, if the value of intelligence for normal girl at her maximum level would be capped at 300, "genius" girl could reach 400. 

That's similar to how it is working at the moment but at higher levels traits plainly get lost in the process (A max does not ensure stat value so a girl with a Genius trait can have 10/400 intelligence at level +/-140). Also we do not have hardcaps like that and are not likely to add them.

btw. if we convert most of the important stuff to skills, do we still need to have experience levels? Wouldn't a skill progression system be better? (increase skills by doing them and not with exp related maximums)

Not "most", ALL of the important stuff (Charisma, Endurance, Intelligence) remain stats. Skills are counters of trainings and actions and are therefor excluded from leveling system.

==============================================================================
Regardless of what we do, traits like Genius and Retarded will NOT work unless we simply minimize intelligence at 1000 or hardcap it to 10 (respectively) whenever the trait is applied. If we care about sh!t like this, it's prolly best to get rid of these traits that simply describe the characters relative to other characters in the game because for as long as we have stats and allow huge differences between them at different levels, these traits will NEVER work for us without raising questions.

*On the other hand, it's not really that big of a deal to be inconsistent about stuff like that. We already had one successful release and NOONE! complained about that or even mentioned it...  Legitimate complains were:
- inconsistent interface (fixed by Gismo in most places)
- balancing
- items management (Auto-Equip, Equipping from MCs inventory were requested) (we improved this a lot)
- click-able areas on the map being too small (fixed)
- no explanation about mechanics anywhere
- excessive scope (game concept being too broad) *It;s the way we develop it, so it cannot really be fixed
- too little immersion *no arguments here... still the case
- too little incentive to follow the repetitive actions (this is true but I never got the feeling that it bothered a lot of people).
- Next Day reports had to be compressed (that we did with the summary screen)
- Random girls pics being quite clearly from different characters (Dark didn't mind that)

What we're discussing is prolly to irrelevant to gameplay...
« Last Edit: November 22, 2014, 03:21:24 PM by Xela »
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Offline CherryWood

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Re: Stats Concept
« Reply #39 on: November 22, 2014, 03:39:46 PM »
What we're discussing is prolly to irrelevant to gameplay...
I don't mind unlimited system itself (no lv cap), I played a few fun rpg games like that, but those usually had a content that leveled itself in relation to the player to some extent (generated item stats, etc.) and wasn't really trying to be realistic.

It's just that with no maximums at all, it's hard to tell what those skill numbers actually mean in reality, etc. at what value is the girl should be considered strong (intelligent, a good cocksucker...) in relation to the game world (is it at 50, 100, 500?).
« Last Edit: November 22, 2014, 03:50:00 PM by CherryWood »

Offline Xela

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Re: Stats Concept
« Reply #40 on: November 22, 2014, 03:48:56 PM »
I don't mind unlimited system itself (no lv cap), I played a few fun rpg games like that, but those usually had a content that leveled itself in relation to the player to some extent (generated item stats, etc.) and wasn't really trying to be realistic.

It's just that with no maximums at all, it's hard to tell what those skill numbers actually mean in reality, etc. at what value is the girl should be considered strong (intelligent, a good cocksucker...) in relation to the game world (is it at 50, 100, 500?).

That's true and is also one of the reasons that we're moving to skills. It should be mentioned that we do not really expect players to play for 10000+ days either...

This is a difficult topic because of the complexity of the game itself... some of these questions simply don't have good answers, we just need to pick something and roll with it.
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Offline DarkTl

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Re: Stats Concept
« Reply #41 on: November 22, 2014, 03:54:34 PM »
But in this case, there is a good reason, isn't there. Current system fits really well with most traits.

"Old" system worked like WM system, just added a mod to the stat. We expanded it to add 10% of the mod every five levels.
I remember I changed it a bit, but I don't remember how. I made 5%, I think.
Anyway, it means that at some level trait stops working during level ups, right? When you have all 100%, ie at 50 level for 10%. That's why I'd prefer another system.

lvl_max I don't want to change under any conditions, there is also no reason to do so. Max value we can work with.
My bad, I didn't mean our lvl_max, it was an example of name.

So... basically, you we can narrow it down to:

mod: {"stat": [every_so_many_levels, value]}
max: {"stat": [every_so_many_levels, value]}
Yup, would be cool.

How do we handle cumulative effects from the traits? This can really mess up the game. If there are multiple traits, modding the same stats, it can become chaos really quickly.
I expect many traits to affect skills only. Many of others are mutually exclusive. Leave it to me, I'll make sure that nothing bad will happen.

Regardless of what we do, traits like Genius and Retarded will NOT work unless we simply minimize intelligence at 1000 or hardcap it to 10 (respectively) whenever the trait is applied. If we care about sh!t like this, it's prolly best to get rid of these traits that simply describe the characters relative to other characters in the game because for as long as we have stats and allow huge differences between them at different levels, these traits will NEVER work for us without raising questions.
Perhaps we have no choice but to do so for some of traits. Mind Fucked, for example, is supposed to be a powerful trait that makes a girl more or less crazy, defendless and mindless.

- Random girls pics being quite clearly from different characters (Dark didn't mind that)
You don't like pack, you don't use it. Simple as that.

EDIT: just forget about this, I'm thinking nonsense again
I knew you gonna delete the post. So I quoted it asap before answering, making it useless  :D
Don't let Xela's criticism to discourage you.

It's just that with no maximums at all, it's hard to tell what those skill numbers actually mean in reality, etc. at what value is the girl should be considered strong (intelligent, a good cocksucker...) in relation to the game world (is it at 50, 100, 500?).
I'll think about it.
« Last Edit: November 22, 2014, 03:57:36 PM by DarkTl »

Offline CherryWood

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Re: Stats Concept
« Reply #42 on: November 22, 2014, 03:55:29 PM »
It's just that with no maximums at all, it's hard to tell what those skill numbers actually mean in reality, etc. at what value is the girl should be considered strong (intelligent, a good cocksucker...) in relation to the game world (is it at 50, 100, 500?).

Heh, I just realized how this should be - it should be the same as the rank for the girls. So beggars and such = same as rank 1 girls and on the other side, "top dogs" of the city should have stats on the same values as is the prerequisites for the top profession rank. 

So if currently refinement 120 is required for high-class courtesan, it would make sense for any character with a skill over 120 to be considered "high class" in it. (so "well-known high skilled but not yet nation famous" wizard should have intelligence between 120-200 using this logic)
 
« Last Edit: November 22, 2014, 04:11:40 PM by CherryWood »

Offline Xela

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Re: Stats Concept
« Reply #43 on: November 22, 2014, 04:10:46 PM »
I remember I changed it a bit, but I don't remember how. I made 5%, I think.
Anyway, it means that at some level trait stops working during level ups, right? When you have all 100%, ie at 50 level for 10%. That's why I'd prefer another system.

You did change it (just checked) but forgot to change it during trait application/removal as well... so it's half done.

No, they just continue to add to stat, it doesn't matter what level you're at.

Yup, would be cool.
I expect many traits to affect skills only. Many of others are mutually exclusive. Leave it to me, I'll make sure that nothing bad will happen.

Ok but my time next week for the project will be close to none I expect :(

Perhaps we have no choice to do so for some of traits. Mind Fucked, for example, is supposed to be a powerful trait that makes a girl more or less crazy, defendless and mindless.

True, but it also creates the need to check for it during every event/job that can include any girl. That's beyond frustrating... Allowing so many characters in the game comes with a price. It's not that we can't have this trait in the game, it's that it seems to require so much work and confusion for so little benefit that it's a question if it's worth having them at all.

Don't let Xela's criticism to discourage you.

I don't think that I criticize btw...

Heh, I just realized how this should be - it should be the same as the rank for the girls. So beggars and such = same as rank 1 girls and on the other side, "top dogs" of the city should have stats on the same values as is the prerequisites for the top profession rank. 

So if currently refinement 120 is required for high-class courtesan, it would make sense for any character with a skill over 120 to be considered "high class" in it.

Sorry... it's actually pretty obvious  ::)

Yeap, that's one way, we have been talking ranks for other occupations as well :)
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Offline Xela

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Re: Stats Concept
« Reply #44 on: November 22, 2014, 04:14:09 PM »
So if currently refinement 120 is required for high-class courtesan, it would make sense for any character with a skill over 120 to be considered "high class" in it. (so "high skilled but not yet nation famous" wizard should have intelligence between 120-200 using this logic)

Skills will enhance this. You'd need a lot of skill points to get ranks, skills can be obtained by many means but specific ranks will require actual practice and education (or combination of both/any really). That will be main difference between skills and stats.
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