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Offline Xela

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Stats Concept
« on: November 07, 2014, 12:28:14 PM »
Ok, so some explanations on how stuff works now and some of my thoughts on how it should work in foreseeable future...

Stats:

Stats in PyTFall are what you'd expect them to be, they describe characters capabilities and compare characters to one another.

Logic:

  • stats (current base value)
  • item mod (modifications by items)
  • min (minimum)
  • max (top cap)
  • level max (top cap by characters level)

mod is required to prevent stuff like this:

You have a character with attack of 90 and max attack of 100.
You equip a sword adding 50 more points.
The total (max) is capped with 100.
However when the sword is removed... stat needs to be reverted back to 90 and not become 50 (100 - 50). Also if a character has gained a point, it needs to become 91 and not be lost due to max cap.

min = self-explanatory.

max = absolute maximum the stat is capable of.

level max = absolute maximum a stat is capable of at current level. This is a way to ensure that seriously powerful items cannot be used fully by a weak character (but would still max them out and be useful to them). Every time a level is gained by a character, lvl_max goes up by 5 and normal max by 2. At the start level_max is lower than the max and stats are capped off with that but as character progresses, lvl_max overtakes (and eventually leaves hopelessly behind) normal max and becomes irrelevant, at that point any item can be used to it's fullest potential. Obviously items can only modify normal max or this system would not work. So a sword that adds 100 to max and 100 to attack is of VERY limited use to a noob character while lethal in hands of an advanced one.


Our stats code does all of the above and more:
- it handles death (and ends the game at ANY point automatically if main characters health reaches 0 (*In case of other characters, it removes them from MCs team, employment/ownership, actions/locations))
- it handles level-ups (we use D&D based system but our (true) progression is somewhat more linear at this development stage)
- it handles bonuses from a complex system of traits (part of the bonuses, some are handled by character class (such as those from added effects))
- it automatically restores health, mp and vitality every time new level is reached by any character

what's more, this is used by mobs, complex characters, simple characters, main character (also very different from the rest).


I am not going to go into what every stat is responsible for because even if I do, in a game this complex it will STILL mean different things to different people. So it's up to content creators to play the game, get the feel of stats and decide how to proceed with the content.
« Last Edit: November 07, 2014, 01:56:59 PM by Xela »
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Offline Xela

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Re: Stats Concept
« Reply #1 on: November 07, 2014, 12:28:26 PM »
*Update:
Notes on new skills system:
Skills have two values (counters), one for training and one for actions, for example:

chr.service += 1 will increase action skill.
chr.SERVICE += 1 will increase training skill.
*Note that just one of the letter must be capital: chr.Service += 1 will do the same thing.

chr.get_skill("service") method will return the current value of a skill. I decided to do it a bit differently than originally proposed below:

Training value is always counted at face value.
Action value is being counted at face value unless it's larger than Training value * 3 and everything above that will be divided by 3.

==================
(Not yet implemented)
Traits and Items should be able to do the following:
Increase training multiplier (better training).
Increase action multiplier (better performance).
Increase retrieving the skill multiplier (when getting the actual skill).

Those should be really low (even 0.001) will have an effect. Maybe some items like misc/consumable may be able to increase values themselves (books for example).

*******************************
My thoughts on addons:

Current system does not however extend to a lot of the jobs planned in the future or will require insane amount of stats to go with it...

So I propose the following:

We add counters of trainings and practices for all kinds of actions. It will be very easy to code and understand, seems simple to balance and to control. These we do not expose to the player and use internally.

For example, strip job would add:
strip_action = 0 *Added during jobs
strip_training = 0 *Added during training

We do not create all of this for every character and they will be created "on the fly as required". Otherwise 0 will be returned.

To calculate the actual skill I propose this:

We get the value from the smallest of the two and subtract it from both (one will become 0). Then we take that value and multiply by 3. With this we assume that the best possible combination is one training session for every practice (making training important and more relevant and assume that it provides knowledge that cannot easily be obtained by practice). Than if practice remains, we, we divide it by two and add the the value. If training remains, we just add it to the value.

Some training can provide more points or points to multiple of these skills (like dancing class can provide dance and strip skill for example).

We remove sex stats (Thewlis suggested that already I think) and turn them into skills.


With this system it will make sense to create "ranks" for all occupations (not just prostitute) and add skills to the requirements (still hidden). As skills are gained, we can enable new traits/effects. This will create a potentially interesting system that is easy to manage and to expand and that can serve us for any kind of future development and can even specialize classes. Some ranks would have to be bought like prostitute ranks right now, some will be gained for free when that makes sense.
======================================================

Lets here some thoughts/other options. WM stats system doesn't really serve us anymore as well as it did in the beginning...
« Last Edit: November 19, 2014, 05:56:48 PM by Xela »
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Offline Xela

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Re: Stats Concept
« Reply #2 on: November 07, 2014, 12:28:38 PM »
My views on stats definitions:

charisma: Combination of good looks and general attraction. Also partly covers willingness of other to follow/agree with the character. This is widely used throughout the game.

refinement: Ability of the character to properly behave in high society as well as good manners (or at least a good knowledge of what good manners/etiquette is). *Barely/Not in use atm.

libido: Lust/wish to get laid.  *Barely/Not in use atm.

constitution: Body strength/endurance. AP depend on this stat making it very important. This is not widely used otherwise.

joy: Happiness of the character, it's widely used throughout the game, mostly to determine state of characters mood, pick mood tags, girls quiting employment and so on.

character: Stubbornness, determines how much a character is willing to resist or defend their points of views. Used widely in the game.

reputation: Supposed to be yet another modifier of how trustworthy other characters in the world believe this character to be or how willing they are to deal with this character.  *Barely/Not in use atm.

health: Damage done to the body of a character. Used all over the place.

fame: How well the character is known, this is supposed to be paired with what the characters occupation. Used mostly to boost brothels fame by girls who work there (atm).

mood: Not used at all and prolly will be deleted tomorrow unless someone objects.

disposition: Relationship status between MC and the Character.

vitality: Used to be called fatigue but we've inverted it. This tells us how tired the girl is, originally was supposed to be adjusted automatically by constitution but I am not sure we got as far as coding this in. Otherwise this tells us when a girl should be allowed to rest.

intelligence: How smart a girl is, this is used already (events/some jobs) but jobs that truly require this we do not yet have. This does not enhance magic as it often does in other games (at least not yet).

luck: Used all over. Does exactly what you'd expect it to do.

agility: A batter stat (speed, decided how how fast a character can attack again) that we use to determine speed/dexterity. This could be used in the game outside of be as well.

Battle stats do exactly what you'd expect them to do!

Rest of the stats will be made into skills. We could loose a couple of stats as well, to make game easier to develop.
« Last Edit: November 21, 2014, 01:52:12 PM by Xela »
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Offline livingforever

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Re: Stats Concept
« Reply #3 on: November 07, 2014, 05:40:53 PM »
Hi!
I am not going to go into what every stat is responsible for because even if I do, in a game this complex it will STILL mean different things to different people. So it's up to content creators to play the game, get the feel of stats and decide how to proceed with the content.
Please reconsider that. You need people to test stuff (for both functionality and balance) which is almost impossible if we have no idea what each stat is supposed to do.

You can remove that information later on, but it is important for alpha testing.

We remove sex stats (Thewlis suggested that already I think) and turn them into skills.
While you're on that, consider removing the lesbian stat/skill. Either make everything based on body parts (vaginal, anal, oral, digital) or based on gender and sexual orientation.
Have fun!

Offline Xela

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Re: Stats Concept
« Reply #4 on: November 07, 2014, 05:49:57 PM »
Please reconsider that. You need people to test stuff (for both functionality and balance) which is almost impossible if we have no idea what each stat is supposed to do.

I can write out how I perceive stats tomorrow if required.

While you're on that, consider removing the lesbian stat/skill. Either make everything based on body parts (vaginal, anal, oral, digital) or based on gender and sexual orientation.

With this system, it will be gone as a stat but we need multiple "girls2guy" skills and can function with a single "girl2girl" skill due to a setup of the game. But I expect with the code that creates these "skills" on the fly we can add multiple "girl2girl" skills as well without too much fuss.
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Offline DarkTl

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Re: Stats Concept
« Reply #5 on: November 08, 2014, 04:28:49 AM »
Then service should be a skill too.

I'm not completely satisfied with our current stats system. I took a look at our archived threads and found our old discussion seven months ago.

Quote from: DarkTl
Charisma is a compelling attractiveness or charm. I'd say it's not the actual beauty (they all are beautiful at pictures), it's the ability to use their beauty correctly.
Not entirely true, makeup or dress matter too. Still pictures are unchangeable and cannot be sorted by beauty because it's time consuming and subjective. If we write in the stat description about the ability to use their beauty correctly, it will solve forever some questions about stats logic.
Quote from: DarkTl
Character is the inherent complex of attributes that determines a persons moral and ethical actions and reactions, or something like that. But in the game we use it more like pride or stubbornness
...or rather power of personality. I can't help but recall Morality/Faith/Ethics combination that exists in SM3.
Quote from: DarkTl
Another thing is fitness. Basically, no matter how enduring you are, you cannot always be in top shape without physical activity, that's what it does as a substat in SM3. I always liked the idea.
Quote from: SM wikia
It reduces the Tiredness gains from other actions by a % equal to the Fitness number.  Raising this reduces the amount of tiredness generated by other actions.  As well as increasing the amount that tiredness is recovered by resting.  The cap on this stat can increase past what your constitution is, but gets reset down to it, by certain actions.  Also decreases with constitution as well.  At max, provides a 50% bonus in decreasing fatigue cost, and recovery both via resting and energy potion.
Make sense it terms of life simulation. You have to train all the time to be in a good shape.

Finally, temperament/obedience stats that used widely in other games for ST to determine how well do you train them.

Offline Xela

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Re: Stats Concept
« Reply #6 on: November 08, 2014, 07:09:41 AM »
Then service should be a skill too.

Yeap.

I'm not completely satisfied with our current stats system. I took a look at our archived threads and found our old discussion seven months ago.
Not entirely true, makeup or dress matter too. Still pictures are unchangeable and cannot be sorted by beauty because it's time consuming and subjective. If we write in the stat description about the ability to use their beauty correctly, it will solve forever some questions about stats logic....or rather power of personality. I can't help but recall Morality/Faith/Ethics combination that exists in SM3.Make sense it terms of life simulation. You have to train all the time to be in a good shape.

I don't expect many people being satisfied with any system borrowed from a different game. We've started with a goal of rewriting WM in Python but moved away from that because some of it's concepts felt outdated. Now we're stuck with stats that require an update.

All this stuff is subjective... same thing as I've wrote in the front post, these stats will mean different things to different people who play and develop the game. That's why I proposed counters, seems really hard to mess that one up.

I think that stuff like Morality/Ethics/Faith is too complex and specific for our game. If you want, we can add "alignment" (Dark/Light), we even had a pretty frame from your graphics for it... I could try my hand at trigonometry again to make it work as a kickass bar. But I prolly want to add this after next release... new stats system seems to be required for the Slave Training (in case we want the module to be ready for the next release).

Finally, temperament/obedience stats that used widely in other games for ST to determine how well do you train them.

*** I still feel strongly against this type of stats. Most girls should just except slavery after a good conversation, those that do not, need to be "broken" the hard way, but that too can be a simple counter. We could have a combination of traits/stats that could make sure that a girl cannot be broken at all too.

I don't mind if you want to create content for the system yourself and use stats as you see fit as long as they don't interfere with the rest of the game but it seems like a lot of complicated, unneeded work. + (we can always expand the module later)
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Offline Thewlis

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Re: Stats Concept
« Reply #7 on: November 08, 2014, 10:01:37 AM »
With this system, it will be gone as a stat but we need multiple "girls2guy" skills and can function with a single "girl2girl" skill due to a setup of the game. But I expect with the code that creates these "skills" on the fly we can add multiple "girl2girl" skills as well without too much fuss.
I'd suggest just having an orientation penalty. So girl flagged as hetro would have a multiplier of 1 with guys, but if they client is female they'd have a multiplier of 0.6 or something. The multiplier could then be increased with homosexual-specific training.

----

Not that it can't be changed in ST with the coming of the new stats, but I used Character as a 'reverse obedience'. While you may not want an obedience stat, having some sort of acceptance stat would help convey to the player how much the girl is willing to do.

Offline Xela

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Re: Stats Concept
« Reply #8 on: November 08, 2014, 10:22:58 AM »
I'd suggest just having an orientation penalty. So girl flagged as hetro would have a multiplier of 1 with guys, but if they client is female they'd have a multiplier of 0.6 or something. The multiplier could then be increased with homosexual-specific training.

Multipliers could be a nice touch but once again: More work :)

I think we can work with skills like:

Oral (blowjob/cunninglingus)
Sex (Normal)
Anal (Anal)
*maybe a few more.

Not that it can't be changed in ST with the coming of the new stats, but I used Character as a 'reverse obedience'. While you may not want an obedience stat, having some sort of acceptance stat would help convey to the player how much the girl is willing to do.

I like it the way it is... most characters should just agree after explaining their situation to them and especially after promising to free them after 5 - 10 years of loyal service (was a practice in Rome (*In large cities, in rural areas they were often grossly mistreated)). We can have more intensives.

For girls that refuse, it's always seems weird when there is a specific amount of torture character would need to endure to allow be kissed by player, another amount to give a blowjob and yet another amount to work as service girl or prostitute/stripper... that usually ruins the game itself even while at times providing half-decent gameplay...
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Offline livingforever

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Re: Stats Concept
« Reply #9 on: November 08, 2014, 11:40:05 AM »
Hi!
Oral (blowjob/cunninglingus)
Sex (Normal)
Anal (Anal)
*maybe a few more.
I'm trying hard not to give you a lesson on official definitions here, but please stop using "sex" as a synonym for "vaginal", because it definitely isn't. Sex is the short term for sexual intercourse which means any form of penetration.
Have fun!

Offline Xela

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Re: Stats Concept
« Reply #10 on: November 08, 2014, 11:59:14 AM »
Hi!I'm trying hard not to give you a lesson on official definitions here, but please stop using "sex" as a synonym for "vaginal", because it definitely isn't. Sex is the short term for sexual intercourse which means any form of penetration.
Have fun!

That was inherited from WM as well...
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Offline afhlink

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Re: Stats Concept
« Reply #11 on: November 08, 2014, 11:12:32 PM »
Where I live the legal definition of sex is vaginal intercourse with penetration from a penis. Nothing else is considered sex. So, YMMV.

Offline Xela

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Re: Stats Concept
« Reply #12 on: November 20, 2014, 04:57:31 PM »
Right... so, more on skillz:

Items now accept a new field:

mod_skills: {"strip": [0, 1, 2, 3, 4]}

Where:
0: Multiplier to action counter
1: Multiplier to training counter
2: Multiplier to skill (when getting a total skill value)
3: Adding to action counter
4: Adding to training counter

Traits  now accept a new field:

mod_skills: {"strip": [0, 1, 2]}

Where:
0: Multiplier to action counter
1: Multiplier to training counter
2: Multiplier to skill (when getting a total skill value)

Note: ALL Values need to be specified when creating items or traits! If you do not wish to mod one of the values, just set it to 0.
Note 2: Be careful with multipliers, they can ruin the game. Currently they are hard capped at 1.5 but that is also very, very powerful, multiplier can be very low (like 0.01) as skills can be calculated as floats.
Note 3: Do not use negative values for:
3: Adding to action counter
4: Adding to training counter
I don't think anything bad will happen but I'd prefer characters not to "unlearn"/"untrain" skill points.
Note 4: Game should work but it is currently rigged to simply ignore old stats, we still have a lot of work ahead of us to replace old system with the new.
========================================================================

Questions/Decisions to be made:
I've made the list of old stats in one of the front posts with explanation on how I understand them. What do we keep/add/get rid of?
Current skills: SKILLS = set(["vaginal", "anal", "oral", "strip", "service"]) I just added those for testing purposes. We need to come up with a list of skills and how we're going to use them.
I proposed Ranks for all occupations (like we have for Prostitutes atm.), do you agree with this?
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Offline Xela

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Re: Stats Concept
« Reply #13 on: November 21, 2014, 08:39:43 AM »
Is "manual" a good name for stuff done with hands? Like a general skill for masturbation/fingering/handjobs and etc?
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Offline livingforever

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Re: Stats Concept
« Reply #14 on: November 21, 2014, 09:37:38 AM »
Hi!
Is "manual" a good name for stuff done with hands? Like a general skill for masturbation/fingering/handjobs and etc?
The correct term would be digital.
Yes, I am aware that digital also has a technical meaning, but I'm quite certain that nobody will confuse the two.
Have fun!