General Balancing / Mods

[Flowersteel]

Im thinking the game would improve from a longer start-to-mid game, and I think the game generally lacks in the endgame. I still think the games great, mind ye
 
kaneage did a mod where the girls cost 60-100k in the auction and you started with 200k. Prices were increased on the gangs usage as well (I think times 4). This had the unfortunate effect that you never really bought any girls from the auction.
 
Good things that really slowed progress down though, and that I would recommend working into the game generally:
 
1) No option to expand brothel, or change price to apr 75.000 per expansion
2) Increase price on gangs by up to x5
3) Increase price of girls to x2
4) Decrease the chance of encounters in the catacombs by girls
5) Brothel no 5 should only be accessible if you have a working bar (defined as at least 2 bartenders & 1 stripper)
6) Brothel no 4 should only be accessible if you have a working casino (defined as at least 3 dealers & 1 customer service girl)
 
If you cant expand your number of rooms, and gangs are rather expensive - it will take longer, and be more of a struggle to get to midgame (2+ brothels). If you have added accessibility needs for Brothel 4+5 (endgame), you need to do a bit more of micromanagement in midgame to progress.
 
I found that kaneages mod definitely challenged me a lot more in the beginning of the game, but I think I found a winning formula that is too easy to employ, so Im trying to come up with a clever idea for making the game more challenging.
 
Hope this is food for thought.

[polol]

Well, if you don't mind compiling the game yourself

1) No option to expand brothel, or change price to apr 75.000 per expansion

Search and edit the numbers to your liking in cScreenBuildingSetup.cpp:

if(g_InterfaceEvents.CheckButton(buyrooms_id))
{
  if(!g_Gold.brothel_cost(5000))
   g_MessageQue.AddToQue("You need 5000 gold to add 5 rooms", 1);
  else
   g_Brothels.GetBrothel(g_CurrBrothel)->m_NumRooms += 5;
 }

If you like, I think you can safely comment out the entire section to disable it.
Also, in the same file (This is just the text you see on the sreen, where the 5 is the cost/1000):

void cScreenBuildingSetup::init()
{
...
 ss << "Add Rooms: " << tariff.add_room_cost(5) << " gold";
...
}

2) Increase price on gangs by up to x5
3) Increase price of girls to x2

You can change this in the configs

4) Decrease the chance of encounters in the catacombs by girls

In WorkExploreCatacombs.cpp:

if ((g_Dice%100)+1 > max(girl->combat(), girl->magic()))   // WD:   Allow best of Combat or Magic skill
{
 stringstream noplay;
 noplay << "Nobody wants to play with you today in the catacombs ";
 girl->m_Events.AddMessage(noplay.str(), IMGTYPE_PROFILE, DayNight);
 return true;
}

Unfortunately, the encounter rate depends on the girl's combat/magic skill. You can change g_Dice%100 to g_Dice%50, for example, but girls with over 50 magic/combat will never get encounters.
Better if you give all girls a flat rate by changing the first line to so:

if ((g_Dice%100)+1 > 10)

which gives all girls a flat 10% encounter rate, for example


edit: actually something like this would work better:

if ((g_Dice%100)+1 > max(girl->combat(), girl->magic()))   // WD:   Allow best of Combat or Magic skill
{
 if ((g_Dice%100)+1 > 50)
  stringstream noplay;
  noplay << "Nobody wants to play with you today in the catacombs ";
  girl->m_Events.AddMessage(noplay.str(), IMGTYPE_PROFILE, DayNight);
  return true;
 }
}

This set encounter rates to 50%, for example

5) Brothel no 5 should only be accessible if you have a working bar (defined as at least 2 bartenders & 1 stripper)
6) Brothel no 4 should only be accessible if you have a working casino (defined as at least 3 dealers & 1 customer service girl)

Couldn't you just employ the girls temporarily to get around this? This is possible to change, but I'm not sure how useful it would be :/

[sgb]

I don't think simply making everything more expensive would improve the game difficulty.  It's already easy to win without having a single girl, and you can easily make over a thousand gold per day with just a few experienced girls.  You would have to completely overhaul the gang portion of the game, or even remove it entirely and work from there, before any changes to the brothel end would matter.

[kaneage]

Search and edit the numbers to your liking in cScreenBuildingSetup.cpp:

In WorkExploreCatacombs.cpp:

where are these files. ive been looking and the only ones i see are the XML files and they dont let me do what im wanting to do.  Just tell me where to look and ill gladly do the rest of the leg work.

[Uriel]

It's source files man 

[Flowersteel]

Interesting, intersting. Im not much of a coder, so I wouldnt know half of the stuff needed to change the things you describe above - although they make sense to me

I agree that once youve understood the basics of the game, its not that difficult to break. I was simply aiming at some easily changed parameters to increase start/midlevel game - and a good bit of the things kaneage did in his config appealed to me. And others I felt detracted from the game (because youd never use the slavemarket girls), but overall I liked the sentiment of trying to generate a more difficult - yet still interesting gameplay without breaking the spirit of the game.

Ill try to think up some better suggestions

[DocClox]

A few thoughts on the general subject.

First of all, thanks for looking at the problem. This is the sort of effort I'd hoped would result when I wrote the config file code in the first place, and it's nice to see it getting some serious attention.

Second thing: remember this needs to be accessible to new players as well.The game can be very hard to get started with as it is. If we just crank up the difficulty to the point where experienced players are challenged, we risk making the game unplayable for newbies.

Third thing: I think the real challenge lies in making the game difficulty continue to rise as the game progresses. Currently there's an initial "hump" at the start of the game where you have to run at a loss and take on debt to survive. Then, all of a sudden, you find yourself established, and after that it's just a case of taking on more girls. In a sense the game is over as soon as you're cash-flow positive.

Now, the problem there is that raising prices makes the "hump" harder to get over, but doesn't really extend the period of difficulty. What the game really needs is a prolonged series of challenges to keep the player on his toes. Sadly I don't have any good ideas how to do that purely as a configuration issue.

[polol]

Flowersteel:  yeah, quite a lot of stuff is still hard coded into the game

Also, I have to agree with others with this one,

The problem, as DocClox mentioned, is that perpetual player challenge is not easy to implement using the simple config files we have so far. They can be used to slow the player down at the start and fine-tuning between the various source of incomes, but beyond that, it does not offer anything to stop the player from achieving a run-away profit toward the mid-game. Most likely, the challenge will have to come from scripted or procedurally generated events. That's the whole idea with LUA, if I'm not mistaken. The config files were certainly in the right direction, though.

 

Anyways, as for ideas; first, we should decide whether or not we want an open-ended game or not.

For closed-ended game, we can give a backstory and have a really hard end-game goal. For example, searching 100+ worth of catacomb floors to locate your father's doomsday device or something equally silly. In this case, the end-goal acts as a HUGE money sink to gear up and equip your elite party of ~50 girls to raid the final floor. Every 10 floors or so, there should be a significant reward beyond common items. The rewards should be unique and have a bit of benefit to the player to encourage them to work their way down the catacomb (eg. new demon girls for recruitment, discount tickets, access to better slave markets etc.). Once the end-goal is reached, however, the money sink is gone, so it's essentially the same free-mode we have now.

For open-endness, we can try a survival-mode type game where the player is trying to wage an endless war against catacomb/alien/gangs/whatever invaders. Difficulties increases exponentially with time with the aim of overwhelming the player eventually.  In the current version, we do have gangs that attack the player occasionally, but it’s far too easy (and mostly non-existence where game balance is concerned).

This is not a city-building/designer-type game or anything, so I think anyone would be too attached to their brothel, but that's just my opinion. We can always have a free mode, which plays as it is now.

 

Anyways, happy modding!

[DocClox]

Most likely, the challenge will have to come from scripted or procedurally generated events. That's the whole idea with LUA, if I'm not mistaken. The config files were certainly in the right direction, though.

Yeah, the config files were attempt #1 to sort the problem. Plan B was to use building management, Lua events and city wards to keep presenting new challenges.

• Restrict available resources at start of game. Fewer customers, less cash per customer, many rooms unavailable, limited brothel size, whatever. Make bypassing those restrictions dependent on unlocking other city wards.
• Make unlocking each ward a significant milestone requiring a lot of player resources. Lua is used to implement the unlocking quests. These can require a certain amount of money, a slavegirl trained to a certain standard; a rare item from the catacombs; vary the conditions from one ward to the next.
• Other Lua events can trigger based on the city wards controlled bu the player. So an event will be more challenging with 5 wards controlled than it would be with just one, and some will not happen at all until the correct ward has been fully controlled.

Doing that, I reckon we could smooth the difficulty curve quite a lot.

[De Kus]

I think this difficulty curve could be introduced by expanding the functionility of your revals:
For example, if a city has a set max customers there will be somewhen a point you cannot attract more customers unless you confront your opponents. And to confront them you will have to invest much money and risk being punished by the jurisdiction. The game should force you increase your budget for advertisement, security, gangs, etc. as the game progresses.
So far I have only seen that the opponents will eventually come to you with some super strong gangs, but if you put all your money on the bank you couldn't care less about their theft. Maybe they should also try you kidnap your girls or maybe even just entice away some unhappy/rebellious ones which are close to run away anyway. This would require you to put more girls/money on guarding gangs and security girls.
Also gangs currently are a little boring to deal with. Also the money you can spend on them is limited. All the gangs are pretty much the same expect for their starting stats. You could for example accumulate all their stats to calculate a level and use this as a multiplier for their costs. This way your gangs could be cheap in the beginning (gangs with starting stats should be in the first few levels) and cost your last shirt when they hit level 10. Using the gangs level in the fighting messages will also give you an impressive of how strong your opponents gangs are.

[Flowersteel]

Guys - polol, Doc and mr. Kus thx for the comments. I so absolutely get your points, and I especially agree with Docs comments about the "inital hump" not being the issue - but rather generating a mid and end game once you get over that initial issue. Im a strategic powerplayer by heart, and would hate to have a closed end game. Its like playing monopoly, owning the entire board, and everyone else leaves. Whats the point of the game if you have to stop at a point ?

I would still suggest to limit the expansion opportunities of your current brothel. This doesnt deter new players, and force players into using gangs to expand in order to earn more money. I also think its difficult in the current form to "config" your way out of the lacking mid/end game. And I agree that the Lua scripting can add a lot in this regard.

What I would suggest, though, is have a natural progression of "resources" that you need. 1. You need girls to gain gold. 2. You need territories to gain new brothels.

Expand this thinking, and you add a layer of complexity to the game that will not confuse new players, and keep veterans occupied.

An idea could be to have the 3 brothel placed in the catacombs, and in order to build there, you need to sacrifice 100 monster girls. All of a sudden you have a 3rd resource (monster girls) that require new actions (catacomb combat).
Next step could be that in order to get the 4th brothel, you need a favours from the citizens. Favours could be earned primarliy through gambling dens (so you need to setup a casino), or setting slaves and patrons free. That gives you a new resource you can gather with existing resources, and one youll only need late in the game.
Next step could be to introduce gems, or magical potions, or that your girls have to win contest or any number of "resources" that are required to be able to buy the next brothel.

Ideally, you want new players to initially do logical stuff, like whore out girls. Then get stuck, and realise you need to take over new territories in order to buy a new brothel. The Lua events and the missions are nice to give players an idea of how other options work than the most logical ones. In all honesty, as a new player, it is very difficult to identify the value of some actions like gambling and XXX entertainment, and the like.

If players cannot easily expand their current brothel (by having a steep price, maybe even exponentially increasing for the brothel in question), they would have a need to go out and get the next one in line. You can also "re-invent" some of the cool stuff already in the game, like the bar, the casino, etc. in order to make resources, or spend resources.

More types of resources = more complexity.

[sgb]

Lots of talk about restricting brothel slots, but I've honestly never seen that 'resource' as an issue in the game.  I don't think I've EVER needed to expand beyond my initial brothel except to acquire every single unique girl in my directory.  More than 6-7 girls whoring per shift tends to be the limit before you start running in to 'no more customers were interested in X'.  Throw in a Matron, cleaner, security and catacomb runner for the hell of it, and you're still under 20 slots.

I think the best ways to improve difficultly at the brothel end would be to require more non-whoring jobs to have your brothel running smoothly.  This would require the stripper, bar and casino jobs to become fully functioning jobs of course.  Just throwing some thoughts out there:

-Require X amount of bar staff, otherwise customer flow suffers severly.
-The recent update already made steps here, but the brothel should require multiple security girls later in the game to avoid damage.
-Tweak catacombs so that there's only one attempt made per turn, with all girls assigned to catacombs pooling their skills.  No more 'one uber girls solos the dungeon'.  Also, remove the ability to gain beasts from catacombs.  It makes the Beast Capturer job pointless.  Remove the ability for gangs to run catacombs.
-Remove the ability to have beast sex acts at all unless you have beasts, or have the gold penalty for not having one severe.
-The recent update already made steps here, but have torturing without a torturer be extremely ineffective.
-Reduce advertising effectiveness, improve the rate at which advertising girls improve advertising.

Basically, just require more and more non-whoring jobs to keep your business running.  Right now you don't really need ANY of them except a cleaner, and maybe a matron if you're really lazy.  This wouldn't simply be a 'more money to get going' change, this would require more time and micromanagement to get established.

[sgb]

Late game the problem lies 100% with gangs.  Right now, it's very easy to get a near-maxed guard or two with level 4 weapons and safely ignore gangs forever.  Likewise a few high-stat gangs will have your rivals bled dry in a few months, and you a millionare.  There's basically no way to lose the gang war unless you completely neglected them early game.

There needs to be a way for a near-maxed guard to lose occasionally, but without leading to a snowball effect that causes all your gangs to get killed off.  Have it possible for an uber-gang to fail to guard at all, resulting in no damage to the gang but damage to your assets or brothel (having Security girls come in here as well).  On the flipside, sabotaging gangs should fail and take losses more often.  Make recruiting costs increase with gang average stat level.  Replacing skilled gang members should not be cheap.

I'd suggest cutting the gang limit as well.  You can have 5-6 gangs sabotaging at once without sacrificing defence, which kind of decimates your rivals in short order.  With only 4-5 gangs, combined with one guard no longer being a 100% safeguard, you'd have to be more careful.

[ShiningRadiance]

Late game the problem lies 100% with gangs.  Right now, it's very easy to get a near-maxed guard or two with level 4 weapons and safely ignore gangs forever.  Likewise a few high-stat gangs will have your rivals bled dry in a few months, and you a millionare.  There's basically no way to lose the gang war unless you completely neglected them early game.

There needs to be a way for a near-maxed guard to lose occasionally, but without leading to a snowball effect that causes all your gangs to get killed off.  Have it possible for an uber-gang to fail to guard at all, resulting in no damage to the gang but damage to your assets or brothel (having Security girls come in here as well).  On the flipside, sabotaging gangs should fail and take losses more often.  Make recruiting costs increase with gang average stat level.  Replacing skilled gang members should not be cheap.

I'd suggest cutting the gang limit as well.  You can have 5-6 gangs sabotaging at once without sacrificing defence, which kind of decimates your rivals in short order.  With only 4-5 gangs, combined with one guard no longer being a 100% safeguard, you'd have to be more careful.

I'd rather have even more gangs on my side, and make it so enemy gangs can team up to attack in a unified attack, increasing enemy gangs and increasing enemy gang strength.

[Flowersteel]

With kaneages config I was forced to not have any gangs until about 5-7 weeks in (with gangs being very expensive). And it took a long time to build up a suitable gang that could handle the opposition.

A minor thing - I completely agree that guarding duty for gangs should only be for guarding against other gangs, and the security girls should keep the girls in check. That would mean youd need to make a dependable security girl early on.

I dont understand why you would only need 20 slots in a brothel, when 200 can net you 60.000+ gold per week. But then Im also going very slowly through the weeks and not just spammng the "next week" button once I have a sustainable economy. That tactic should also be discouraged IMHO.