<-- Archived --> *Image tagging concept

[rudistoned]

the trouble is that we could end up with a number of useless tags and for thousands of images, it means more loading time.

IMHO, the impact on loading time between having 5 and having 25 tags per image, even for thousands of images, is quite small. Why?
Two scenarios:
1) If you load a prebuilt database (pickled object, or even JSON), reading that data will happen in about a second.
2) If you load the tags from XMP metadata, what takes long is opening thousands of files, read a couple of bytes and close the file again. If 200 or 1000 bytes are read each time will not have a huge impact because both will be BY FAR to slow to do it every time the game loads.

[Xela]

I guess we already have quest tag/category for it? So we won't need to use profile pics for meetings then.
Ok, so nature, building, onsen, bikini=beach, street. If none of these, then the picture should be considered as universal.
We should decide what specifics we going to use for sex, anal, bj, group and bdsm (maybe mast?) then, even if we don't use bdsm yet.

True about the quest tag, but cleared up (bg removed) profile is basically quest, now with tagging system, we could in theory get rid of quest tag all together...

What about nude catagory/tag? You avoided answering last time I asked you, so I'm asking again: how are you going to use it? 

Missed it, I think it'll disappear as a category and will be replaces with nude clothing tag, for every other category separately... unless someone got a better idea?

We also need strip tag for strip category, I guess. Same for dance, maid, etiquette, beauty, battle for battle sprites, date, rest, shop.

I think battle clean or battle_sprite are better, seems like it should be a main category for the picture. What we call battle right now can be battle? Most of the other tags, tagger already has.

What to do with pics where girl eating, playing some game or musical instrument, etc? Right now they are mostly in ent category.

This falls into: I have no idea what the future holds category, I think musical instrument is an overkill at this or prolly any point. Music by itself, might be an extra tag for profile category. I am still trying to get my head straight on the whole tagging thing, seems like it requires a different level of thinking than our old system.

IMHO, the impact on loading time between having 5 and having 25 tags per image, even for thousands of images, is quite small. Why?
Two scenarios:
1) If you load a prebuilt database (pickled object, or even JSON), reading that data will happen in about a second.
2) If you load the tags from XMP metadata, what takes long is opening thousands of files, read a couple of bytes and close the file again. If 200 or 1000 bytes are read each time will not have a huge impact because both will be BY FAR to slow to do it every time the game loads.

Oki, I'm jumpy about the performance hit because I just got rid of a bottleneck and improved our loading time from 16 to 2 secs... We'll tag the images so much, they'll try to delete themselves     

[DarkTl]

True about the quest tag, but cleared up (bg removed) profile is basically quest, now with tagging system, we could in theory get rid of quest tag all together...

If you expect me to mass delete backgrounds on profile pics, be ready for 2 packs per month at best 
I think we do need some kind of tag for meeting pics, either quest or backgroundless, etc.

Missed it, I think it'll disappear as a category and will be replaces with nude clothing tag, for every other category separately... unless someone got a better idea?

Hm, the difference between strip and nude are circumstances and facial expression. So it could be presex pic or something, like you mentioned in this post. Still, we really could just add nude tag and use it with any other category, like building or rest.

Music by itself, might be an extra tag for profile category. I am still trying to get my head straight on the whole tagging thing, seems like it requires a different level of thinking than our old system.

I guess all ent pics should go to profile or rest categoty then. Games are type of rest, after all.

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I'll give it some thought and will try to form a list of subcategories for hentai pics tomorrow.

[Xela]

If you expect me to mass delete backgrounds on profile pics, be ready for 2 packs per month at best 
I think we do need some kind of tag for meeting pics, either quest or backgroundless, etc.

I don't get it... There wasn't even a hint of suggestion to remove all backgrounds... Also, there is a RenPy script that can remove simple backgrounds automatically just fine, Roman wrote it, I haven't tried it yet.

I can't tell from your post if you realize that more than one category can be called and game will do it's best to pic the best match.

For example, if we call girl.show("profile", "happy", "no bg", resize=(300, 700)) it will do it's best to find what we would consider a questhappy pic, then if not available, try simple background, then any profile pic... how or why does that not work for you and why is adding quest main category better?

Hm, the difference between strip and nude are circumstances and facial expression. So it could be presex pic or something, like you mentioned in this post. Still, we really could just add nude tag and use it with any other category, like building or rest.
I guess all ent pics should go to profile or rest categoty then. Games are type of rest, after all.

Strip/Profile/Dance could be main categories, rest are subtags... I think girl taking cloth off is stripping or dancing naked near a pole is stripping. Naked can be a subtag for many categories.

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I'll give it some thought and will try to form a list of subcategories for hentai pics tomorrow.

I've been thinking about it as well... we need to come up with a structure for tags and be able to put it in a clear concept...

Main Tag --> Subtag (amount as main Tag requires) --> Location (or simple/no bg) --> Clothing --> Mood. Tags as they are now are good but they are confusing as I they are missing stuff like profile, battle_sprite, date that we're used to and that have been successful in PyTFall so far. Also there are no "simple/no bg" tags (weird btw) and I am not sure that looking at tags in active/passive sex, I understand the intended difference between the two categories.

Girl ID can prolly be drawn from a folder she's in by the game.

EDIT:
Oh, before I forget: One other tag that might be useful in some cases and related to sex pics: partner hidden, partner visible.

EDIT:
This is a maybe... but we might add quality tag from 1 to 10, like "q8" and display those according to girls level. Just an idea, I am not insisting on it or anything.

[CherryWood]

I think it would be best for some categories (like ent or sex) to not chose action first and then look for appropriate pic, but to check what pics are there and chose from actions accordingly.
I believe that could really smooth things a lot (at the cost of sacrificing realism a bit).

True about the quest tag, but cleared up (bg removed) profile is basically quest, now with tagging system, we could in theory get rid of quest tag all together...

I was using quest category for "novel" sprites and I would like to retain a separate tag for these, as they are a lot harder to make then just a profile pics without bg. (novel pics can be used in a place of bg-less pic, but not the other way round.)

...and I think I would still prefer a "meeting" tag for profile over forcing bg-less pics.

[DarkTl]

how or why does that not work for you and why is adding quest main category better?

Not main category, more like tag. Some profile pics are more suitable for meeting, some are less, no matter background or place, it's just a quick example.

This is a maybe... but we might add quality tag from 1 to 10, like "q8" and display those according to girls level. Just an idea, I am not insisting on it or anything.

I don't get this one 

[CherryWood]

As for tags:
 I checked all my girlpacks and these are subtypes of pics that were present in quantity that I consider worthwhile for making texts or actions out of them: (from the viewpoint that all old namebased categories remain)



she is restrained but alone in pics (just bondage)/someone is visibly doing something with her for bdsm
melee, guns (modern stuff) for combat
titty, blow/hand/foot job for blowjob
lingerie,nekomimi for beauty
sport, cosplay, music for ent
sex, bukkake for group
maid, bunny for maid
taking a nap, bath, reading a book for rest
meeting (clothes and expression that is ok for being outside in public) for profile

[DarkTl]

Yup. Also tri/strap/lick/etc for les and hand/device for mast, if we need that kind of accuracy.

Maybe cooking/eating and drunk tags too.

[Xela]

I think it would be best for some categories (like ent or sex) to not chose action first and then look for appropriate pic, but to check what pics are there and chose from actions accordingly.
I believe that could really smooth things a lot (at the cost of sacrificing realism a bit).
I was using quest category for "novel" sprites and I would like to retain a separate tag for these, as they are a lot harder to make then just a profile pics without bg. (novel pics can be used in a place of bg-less pic, but not the other way round.)

...and I think I would still prefer a "meeting" tag for profile over forcing bg-less pics.

I don't understand what you mean by not choosing an action first and then look for the appropriate pic. We are not building Skynet here so our game is not that smart, it can only look for what we tell it to look  Can you give an example?

Ok, than do we want quest to be subtag of profile or tag category in itself? Meeting tag, do you mean like conversation/encounter?

Not main category, more like tag. Some profile pics are more suitable for meeting, some are less, no matter background or place, it's just a quick example.

Yeap well, if CW meant by meeting tag what I think he did, that issue is solved. BTW: That pic of yours has suggested me another two rather important categories! Time of day (morning, day, evening, night) and season (spring, summer, autumn, winter). It might be very important for consistency.

I don't get this one 

Well, I am not a big fan of such approach myself, but many people seem to like it. Even amongst decent pics, some are obviously better, some are obviously worse. If we tag with a quality tag, we can have game automatically display better pics only as girl's level increases/quests are completed. Also, it would be very easy to make something like that optional... If lower quality pictures are not available, game will automatically choose better pics. Like I've said, something like this exists in numerous games and I've always spoke against such an approach in Sims,  but I thought 'll bring it up so we can kill or implements this right off the bat.

As for tags:
 I checked all my girlpacks and these are subtypes of pics that were present in quantity that I consider worthwhile for making texts or actions out of them: (from the viewpoint that all old namebased categories remain)

Good exercise, I'll take look at booru to see what tags we might need. Otherwise... You've had a list of tags we use for the game in your db folder but it's gone now so:

battle_sprite
battle

anal
blowjob <-- might be killed off... in favor of more precise acts?
les
sex <-- might be killed off... in favor of more precise acts? Note: When I got to subtags, it turned out that sex/anal/lesbian as tags are very much required to avoid confusion and other unnecessary tags!

date
datebeach <-- we kill off in favor of date --> location --> tags combination
ent
nude <-- definitely a tag, we already have it
profile <-- category as we're used to them...
profileangry <-- gone as a tag
profilesad <-- gone as a tag
profilehappy <-- gone as a tag
profileneutral <-- gone as a tag
questneutral <-- kill in favor of quest + neutral tags (neutral is called indifferent in the software btw.)
questhappy <-- same as above
questangry <-- same
questsad <-- same
rest <-- tag now... sleep maybe as well? I am not sure, there are some tags like this under actions already
shop <-- we keep as tag, call it shopping?
strip <-- We keep as tag

As for tags:
 I checked all my girlpacks and these are subtypes of pics that were present in quantity that I consider worthwhile for making texts or actions out of them: (from the viewpoint that all old namebased categories remain)



she is restrained but alone in pics (just bondage)/someone is visibly doing something with her for bdsm
melee, guns (modern stuff) for combat
titty, blow/hand/foot job for blowjob
lingerie,nekomimi for beauty
sport, cosplay, music for ent
sex, bukkake for group
maid, bunny for maid
taking a nap, bath, reading a book for rest
meeting (clothes and expression that is ok for being outside in public) for profile

So, required tags from your perspective:
- classic weapons
- modern weapons
- sex tags I've covered separately
- lingerie
- neko we have as cat
- maid we have (do you have new tagger? It has like 50 - 70 tags in it by Rudi (some are a bit confusing))
- bunny we already have
- book we have as reading, should simply be combined with rest
- sport (we have exercising, running and fighting, but sport might be a decent addon)
- cosplay (awesome for some random events)
- music we have musician, it might work.
- nap we have resting, meditating, we can add nap if you have pics for it
- bath we have bathing attendant, bathrobe under clothing, bathroom under locations
- meeting (date + profile combo will not work here???)

Other ideas:
- daytime
- season
- partner hidden
- partner visible
- no bg (transparent png with background removed, some categories imply that...)
- simple bg (one tone or plain background)

Yup. Also tri/strap/lick/etc for les and hand/device for mast, if we need that kind of accuracy.

Maybe cooking/eating and drunk tags too.

- I did cover sex acts, we definitely could use those.
- cooking we have this
- eating Nice one! Addon to rest category and rest job as well some possible events.
- drunk Really rare I believe, it could be useful for events... maybe even to display if we add the effect later...

Sex categories we break into:
Foreplay??:
- lick pussy
- lick anus
- caress tits
- lick tits
- hug
- kiss
- strip

BJ Cat most from SM:
- titsjob
- blowjob
- footjob
- handjob
- 69

Solo:
- mastrubation
- dildo
- anal dildo (?)
-

Sex:
- missionary
- doggy (sraight) (without normalsex/sex tag, doggy can be mistaken for anal... maybe we should keep normalsex after all)
- ontop
- onside (research required for a better name I guess)
- standing
- suspended (girl is clinging to the guy, can be a part of standing)
- sitting

Anal:
- doggy
- missionary
- ontop
- spoon (mostly unclear if it's normal or anal, but since anal pics are less common, we can use it this way)

Lesbian:
- cunnilingus (we'll drive modders nuts with spelling errors, maybe "eat pussy" is a better tag)
- tribadism (another bs word they came up with to make it sound more than it is, "scissors" might be a better tag)
- strapon (pussy assumed)
- strapon (anal added as different tag)
- dildo (pussy assumed)
- dildo (anal as different tag)
- dildo joined (pussy assumed)
- dildo joined (anal added as a different tad)
- kiss (naked in bed obviously, les pics are not that common for many girls)
- caress (same as above, could be both at the same time (often are))

Group: Not applicable right now as we don't have the code?

Submission: Same thing as above, do we tag it now or later?

----------------------------------------
Link to the software if you don't have it:

Download

ImageTagger_0_2_Windows.7z (8.7 MB)
https://mega.co.nz/#!K4g1DLZZ!eSs7gkzNDWLNm3laJa69WgrK6nA6lcEiiBC_1kipvjE

ImageTagger_0_2_Linux.7z (11.5 MB)
https://mega.co.nz/#!Lh4WQK6K!H0F0WTqxp2Gk60nQeKFp4gOuKy0Jq4544S0Z2wRMDvY

Software will not likely get any better logically from this point on and most if not all improvements will be cosmetic and convenience related (what I am saying is that it does exactly what it supposed to and does it well so we can start tagging as soon as we're done with discussions )

Also, Rudi requested that if at all possible, we should use his categories as much as possible so unification and transfer between games is possible, obviously many thing can be straightened out with code though. But most of his tags are useful, although, I have many objections to style... it should be more generic if used for multiple games but we can straighten most of that out by simply changing the layout and keeping most of the tags as they are.

-----------------------------------------------
Anyway... your thoughts...

Still to decide:

- Do we try to tag images for slave-training and dungeon NOW or when we have them?

- Final version on all tag categories.

- Layout discussion (making software PyTFall friendly)

- Final layout discussion

btw:

We forgot about pregnancy...

[DarkTl]

Time of day (morning, day, evening, night) and season (spring, summer, autumn, winter). It might be very important for consistency.

But we don't have that detailed calendar, right? And we don't have day/night shifts too, like in some games. So I'm not sure how you can use such tags in code at all.

Also, often it's quite difficult to distinguish morning from day or spring from summer (yeah, I don't even know when sakura blossoms in Japan  ). I guess we could use the most obvious tags though: winter/snow and night. If it's not winter/snow or night, then no tag.

Even amongst decent pics, some are obviously better, some are obviously worse.

Ugh, sounds like a whole new bunch of work with little return. If people will ask for that (I hope they won't), let's add it after 1.0 (or 2.0  ).

rest <-- tag now... sleep maybe as well? I am not sure, there are some tags like this under actions already

Yup, rest is quite unobvious tag. Sleeping or lying on sofa with music player or a drink, etc., ie passive form of recreation should be here, I guess. At the same time some rest pics could be used as building profile too.

- meeting (date + profile combo will not work here???)

Actually yes, that might work as well.

drunk Really rare I believe, it could be useful for events... maybe even to display if we add the effect later...

Yup, it's rare for some characters while common for others, depending on their origin. So I'm not sure if we need it or not.

- lick pussy
- lick anus

Maybe just lick? Such pics are quite rare though.

- caress tits
- lick tits

Just caress tits?

Solo:
- mastrubation
- dildo

Vibrator, anal beads, some random item (like a bone or a weapon, I'm not joking)...
Maybe just one "devices" tag?

- spoon (mostly unclear if it's normal or anal, but since anal pics are less common, we can use it this way)

Often you can't tell if it's anal or just doggy. So we definitely should use such pics with both tags.

Group: Not applicable right now as we don't have the code?

One thing I can propose is if girl either alone there, or there are several girls on the picture. And bukkake, like Cherry said.

Submission: Same thing as above, do we tag it now or later?
Do we try to tag images for slave-training and dungeon NOW or when we have them?

Now. Like Cherry said, she is restrained but alone in pics (just bondage)/someone is visibly doing something with her for bdsm. So it's bdsm or bdsm+sex/mast/anal/group/torture (or something, there are too much ways to hurt anyway, we cannot give a tag for everything).

Dungeon non bdsm pics are very rare btw.

We forgot about pregnancy...

About tentacles too 

Even if we'll have pregnancy at some point, such pics are superrare even for one category. So I suggest to come up with some way to avoid them, like cloning or another dimension.
-------------------------------

Also there are pictures where girls just lying covered in semen, they probably could use a separate tag, or we could use them for all non les categories.

[CherryWood]

I don't understand what you mean by not choosing an action first and then look for the appropriate pic. We are not building Skynet here so our game is not that smart, it can only look for what we tell it to look  Can you give an example?

Sorry, I'm just bad at describing...
We...
1) choose a main tag category (for example BJ)
2) randomly select a picture from it
3) check secondary tags on that selected picture and display relevant text

so for example a girl with 10 BJ pictures tagged as 9x BJ/titsjob and 1x BJ/- (no secondary tag) will spend 90% of the time giving titsjobs, 10% giving blowjob and never give a handjob, because she don't have a pics for it.

[size=78%]do you have new tagger? It has like 50 - 70 tags in it by Rudi (some are a bit confusing))[/size]

Nope, sorry...  so if something seems to be a duplicate on my list, it probably is

[Xela]

I gotta leave for a while so I don't have much time to reply but from what I gather:

1) Combine some sex subcats.

2) Preg pics instead of profile on advanced pregnancy and we can stop there? I can't find a good solution to display nothing at the moment.

3) With seasons/daytime I meant preventing pics with night/snow popping on a day-summer background, we can simplify, as long as we achieve that goal.

4) Dildo would fall unto device too?

5) Good catch on seamen covered girls... we'll need to think of a tag for that.

6) We either do bondage/dungeon properly or not at all

7) Tentacles/bestiality as in WM?

@CW, game will launch events for pics that are available, if non exist, it will try and choose the next best thing... there is also no "main category" as considered by code, it's only how we ourselves think about the tag system. Requests and checks for tags will be guided by code.

[DarkTl]

Preg pics instead of profile on advanced pregnancy and we can stop there? I can't find a good solution to display nothing at the moment.

Pregnant girl will be unavailable after 2-3 month of impregnation until childbirth?

With seasons/daytime I meant preventing pics with night/snow popping on a day-summer background, we can simplify, as long as we achieve that goal.

Then let's use winter and night tags.

Dildo would fall unto device too?

Nope. It's common enough.

We either do bondage/dungeon properly or not at all

We don't have a system yet. So I propose to use already obvious tags for bdsm pics, I mentioned them already. They will be useful anyway.

Tentacles/bestiality as in WM?

I dislike bestiality, but tentacles pics could be used like in SM (rape events). I don't care either way, it's up to you.

[Xela]

Pregnant girl will be unavailable after 2-3 month of impregnation until childbirth?

Pregnancy in brothels in general is concedered not a very good thing, many loyal girls would be thrown out because of it... In WM/OW it's like nothing is happening at all. Player would have to decide what to do in such cases. I don't think it's a bad compromise. Also there are one or two cases like Ariel --> Melody where a new girl can be found only by player impregnating the mother...

Then let's use winter and night tags.

- autumn (usually apparent by looking at nature)
- winter
- night

Nope. It's common enough.

Ok... so:

- masturbation
- dildo
- device

We don't have a system yet. So I propose to use already obvious tags for bdsm pics, I mentioned them already. They will be useful anyway.

We'll need to come up with a list of tags, maybe later/tomorrow, I am to drunk right now

I dislike bestiality, but tentacles pics could be used like in SM (rape events). I don't care either way, it's up to you.

How is it up to me if I am not the main pack maker for the game...?

There are plenty of pics for it for many girls and we can block it with code all together or for girls that don't have the pics...

But if you mind making the packs, we can just leave the whole thing for the future, I am sure that there are people who enjoy it.

[CherryWood]

Are you sure that we will have use for all those new categories?
I want to ask, because pics with groping/foreplay, semen-covered, tentacles (I'm personally against them) and some others couldn't fit in the old categories, so I didn't download them for any of the girls and adding them now would mean some additional work.