Author Topic: New image tagging concept  (Read 25719 times)

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Offline CherryWood

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Re: New image tagging concept
« Reply #30 on: January 08, 2015, 04:17:13 PM »
And that not even all of them  :D (I mean in the tagger, it's missing some tags from first post like rest and such)


------------some late questions---
What was the reason for dropping provocative/suggestive expression? What to do with those pics now?
"in pain" is good, but I'm not sure about that "insane" one. If adding something new, I thing "surprised" could be useful for portraits for conversation. 


Also something about the clothes:
lolita is out? So what we considered it now, a formal clothes?
and summer clothes? (usually one piece dress+sandals+straw hat) - we could add summer back at least as time tag, we have autumn and winter, so if we add summer we could differentiate those clothes by tagging them as everyday+summer/winter.
And I think "yukata" would be better clothes tag then "kimono". Yukatas are quite common thanks to that summer festival event while a true kimonos could fall under "Formal" category.
« Last Edit: January 08, 2015, 04:34:10 PM by CherryWood »

Offline DarkTl

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Re: New image tagging concept
« Reply #31 on: January 08, 2015, 04:32:32 PM »
We change the whole tagging concept a bit, there is no such a group of tags that has remained the same.
I'll write a guide and throw it into the tagger itself.

And that not even all of them  :D (I mean in the tagger, it's missing some tags from first post like rest and such)
Yup, also some typos here and there.

What was the reason for dropping provocative/suggestive expression? What to do with those pics now?
"in pain" is good, but I'm not sure about that "insane" one. If adding something new, I thing "surprised" could be useful for portraits for conversation. 
You right, I forgot suggestive.
To understand insane one, I propose you to google "yandere trance" pictures for some notable examples. I'm not sure if we need the tag, but I'm sure there are such pictures.
Surprised = scared or uncertain?

Also something about the clothes:
lolita is out? So what we considered it now, a formal clothes?
and summer clothes? (usually one piece dress+sandals+straw hat) - we could add summer back at least as time tag, we have autumn and winter, so if we add summer we could differentiate those clothes by tagging them as everyday+summer/winter.
And I think "yukata" would be better clothes tag then "kimono". Yukatas are quite common thanks to that summer festival event while a true kimonos could fall under "Formal" category.
Lolita is formal indeed. It's so vague and yet rare unless the charater is loli, I don't think it will be useful as a special tag.
Isn't summer = revealing? By revealing I mean exactly clothes that open a lot of skin, no matter the details. We cannot have true seasons anyway.
Ok, let it be yukata.

Offline CherryWood

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Re: New image tagging concept
« Reply #32 on: January 08, 2015, 04:39:10 PM »
Ok, just wanted to know the difference between the old tags and this, I don't really disagree. Revealing is ok if you mean it like that, I imagined something more serious at first.


btw. do we actually need bikini tag? Woudn't just swimsuit be enough? I mean, the difference is obvious and both are common, but I'm not sure if we really can use that distinction in game.

Also having "plugsuit" sound kinda odd, I guess it could pass as "armor" (removed "mage" clothes are armor now too? and military uniforms?) or it could use at least changing to something more generic name, like "tightsuit" or something.  Still hard for me to imagine using this for something.
« Last Edit: January 08, 2015, 04:41:08 PM by CherryWood »

Offline DarkTl

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Re: New image tagging concept
« Reply #33 on: January 08, 2015, 04:54:32 PM »
Yup, we probably don't need both bikini and swimsuit.

Mage and military are both very rare, unless the character is specific. Mage is armor, military is either armor or formal, depending on actual looks. And we always have everyday tag if they are common for someone.
I think I have only a couple of mage pics, and 0 military.

When someones says "plugsuit", I always imagine those battle suits from evangelion and nothing else  :D
But you right, we could replace it with something more common.
« Last Edit: January 08, 2015, 05:04:19 PM by DarkTl »

Offline DarkTl

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Re: New image tagging concept
« Reply #34 on: January 08, 2015, 05:04:26 PM »
Maybe gothic? Lolita will go there as well.

Offline CherryWood

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Re: New image tagging concept
« Reply #35 on: January 08, 2015, 05:21:39 PM »
Don't think so... there are very few other clothes for that besides gothic lolita dresses (I think I looked once into that before) and lolita itself is sometimes sweet and pink.


"Formal" is ok, we can always say that the dress code in PytFall is a little different  :D     Who can know it's not? I'm almost sure that In the name of our religion Xelasism, The prophet Dark Cherry said it is and that's like city's law then  8)
« Last Edit: January 08, 2015, 05:39:01 PM by CherryWood »

Offline DarkTl

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Re: New image tagging concept
« Reply #36 on: January 09, 2015, 04:29:06 AM »
We have enough space in gui for more specific clothes tags. I just don't know which ones. They should be common enough to be useful, and they should not be vague.
I always had doubts about lolita, there is a thin line between lolita and just a fancy long dress.

Offline DarkTl

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Re: New image tagging concept
« Reply #37 on: January 09, 2015, 02:39:41 PM »
I updated the first post, it now contains general principles of tagging. I'm not really sure how deep should I go, everything else should be obvious once you begin to work with the tagger.

Offline Xela

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Re: New image tagging concept
« Reply #38 on: January 09, 2015, 05:10:14 PM »
Ok... so I didn't get anything done with the skills other than adding a simpler method of getting the true skill value... but I did take a look at the tagger and tried to anticipate some of the issues new system might bring:

- Profile tag (main) is a pain in the butt because it MUST be paired with actions. That means that every time I need to get to normal profile tag in the game, I'll have to exclude all actions and that is a longer auto-exclude list than any of the once that we have in the game right now and trying to fix (because every tag to exclude means more database requests, logic and code).
*Suggestion to fix: Add profile to the window with girlsmeets + substitute it in main tags with something else that just opens the actions menu and not a tag in itself OR we could use "clean or safe" tag that I mentioned in earlier posts. I think the latter is a much better option.

- Natural Nude is a bit of an issue as well because I have no clue on what to do with that in the game (logic/code). It would have to be checked everywhere through tagging system (database access + extra logic). We've also agreed not to handle special cases until a much later development stage. No matter how I look at it, it will require a lot of messy code excluding tags where she may be closed and spacial handling cases where she is closed.
*Suggestion to fix: Remove completely, tag a few obvious images and put only nude pics to the profile category because it's her normal state and "nude"/no cloth tags will lead there (because it's better not to tag these girls in that way).

- Normal Sex (ns) + Girl and Normal Sex (ns) + Guy create separate tags that I cannot find use for and that would require special lookup routine coded just for them (we'll prolly have to code something like that at some point anyway but that not the point). It also means more lookups and more code.
*Suggestion to fix: It's be awesome if we could make two single tags out of those on tagging level.

- It would be nice to have (unique) cumcovered tags for Normal and Group categories (I know there is bukkake but that usually involves the act).
*Suggestion to fix: Add the tags.

- Masturbation is difficult to use for a number of reasons.
1) I suppose that to get to masturbation images where the girls is along, we'd have to exclude other sex categories, there is no better way around it in this case as the only other option will require boatloads of new tags that are of very limited use. Unless, someone can offer something that I haven't considered yet.
*Suggestion to fix: Other than what's mentioned above (do nothing, add 40 extra tags), I strongly doubt that well ever get to the point where we check for it paired with other acts. It may be a solution to move it to it's own category...

2) There is no finger/hand option. We can assume that it's just the tag but it, once again will mean that we'll have to exclude all the other tags to get there which is the main thing we're trying to avoid with this retagging effort.
*Suggestion to fix: Add finger/hand tag.

=====================================================================
Other than that, we can add a new dict with your tagnames vs those in the game and after a updating the code a bit , rename images from old JSON and my filenames to your format (Unless you're planning to do so yourself or done so already).

Images will not loose most of the work you guy already done. (this can be done only after we finalized the code).
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Offline CherryWood

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Re: New image tagging concept
« Reply #39 on: January 09, 2015, 06:11:02 PM »

@Xela
I agree the the profile tag behavior is not good like this, but I still don't get that clean tag you promote so much. We have obviously unsafe tags (sex, strip, nude...) but why should we need to care if other normal activities (rest, shopping...) are SFW or not on pictures in game? It sound like something for a packmaker to decide what is appropriate for the character and if you need to show a more sexy picture, there is a suggestive expressions for that. Or did I misunderstood it completely?


And I find that cumcovered for group tag idea odd, should we measure the amount or what?  :D  Ok, seriously now, do we really have plans for using this "cumcovered" tag in game? I never considered those pictures useful for a packs before so I would need to look for them anew for existing girls if we do.

-----------
I still wound like to keep a "profile" tag = profile screen synergy somehow is possible
« Last Edit: January 09, 2015, 06:33:28 PM by CherryWood »

Offline DarkTl

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Re: New image tagging concept
« Reply #40 on: January 10, 2015, 02:00:23 AM »
- Profile tag (main) is a pain in the butt because it MUST be paired with actions. That means that every time I need to get to normal profile tag in the game, I'll have to exclude all actions and that is a longer auto-exclude list than any of the once that we have in the game right now and trying to fix (because every tag to exclude means more database requests, logic and code).
*Suggestion to fix: Add profile to the window with girlsmeets + substitute it in main tags with something else that just opens the actions menu and not a tag in itself OR we could use "clean or safe" tag that I mentioned in earlier posts. I think the latter is a much better option.
I don't know why do you see any difference between profile and sfw. I can change its name in gui, but it won't change anything.

The only way to avoid any additional checks is to not use any main tags at all together with action tags. But in this case we will never know if they are sfw or not.

*Suggestion to fix: Remove completely, tag a few obvious images and put only nude pics to the profile category because it's her normal state and "nude"/no cloth tags will lead there (because it's better not to tag these girls in that way).
Say goodbye to slimes random pack in this case. Ie the only actual monster girl pack.

- Normal Sex (ns) + Girl and Normal Sex (ns) + Guy create separate tags that I cannot find use for and that would require special lookup routine coded just for them (we'll prolly have to code something like that at some point anyway but that not the point). It also means more lookups and more code.
*Suggestion to fix: It's be awesome if we could make two single tags out of those on tagging level.
NS is sex with one parnter, ie not group or bdsm. P1 means sex with girl, p2 means sex with guy.
So you want instead of ns+p1 and ns+p2, let's say, just p1 and p2? Why?
You could just ignore ns completely if you don't need it, p1 already = ns+p1 in terms of logic, it's just more confident for me.
Don't tell me it's too difficult to do nothing with some tag in renpy  ::)

- It would be nice to have (unique) cumcovered tags for Normal and Group categories (I know there is bukkake but that usually involves the act).
*Suggestion to fix: Add the tags.
You still don't understand what do I mean by cumcovered, it seems. Cumcovered means that there are no signs of any actions, except covered state itself. If you can say that this is a normal sex or group sex, then it is normal or group, not cumcovered.
And if you want to tag the very fact that the girl is covered no matter what, I don't see how can we use it either. It's quite subjective description. There is always cum, so pack makers have to judge if it's enough to cover or not.

- Masturbation is difficult to use for a number of reasons.
1) I suppose that to get to masturbation images where the girls is along, we'd have to exclude other sex categories, there is no better way around it in this case as the only other option will require boatloads of new tags that are of very limited use. Unless, someone can offer something that I haven't considered yet.
*Suggestion to fix: Other than what's mentioned above (do nothing, add 40 extra tags), I strongly doubt that well ever get to the point where we check for it paired with other acts. It may be a solution to move it to it's own category...
Characters can masturbate during any other sex action, such pictures are not rare. It's almost like your old active tag. Use it in the same way.

2) There is no finger/hand option. We can assume that it's just the tag but it, once again will mean that we'll have to exclude all the other tags to get there which is the main thing we're trying to avoid with this retagging effort.
*Suggestion to fix: Add finger/hand tag.
I can add hand tag automatically if none of other tags are selected.

Other than that, we can add a new dict with your tagnames vs those in the game and after a updating the code a bit , rename images from old JSON and my filenames to your format (Unless you're planning to do so yourself or done so already).

Images will not loose most of the work you guy already done. (this can be done only after we finalized the code).
We changed clothes and places tags completely, and have more accurate sex tags. It's impossible to automatically convert pictures to new system.
« Last Edit: January 10, 2015, 02:23:31 AM by DarkTl »

Offline DarkTl

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Re: New image tagging concept
« Reply #41 on: January 10, 2015, 02:19:33 AM »
Ok, seriously now, do we really have plans for using this "cumcovered" tag in game? I never considered those pictures useful for a packs before so I would need to look for them anew for existing girls if we do.
I explained it so many times...
It's a universal sex tag, anything except pure lesbian action could happen to the character before she became like this. So if we don't have some specific picture in a pack, we can use cumcovered instead.

You don't have to look for them if you don't care about it. I do care.
« Last Edit: January 10, 2015, 02:25:28 AM by DarkTl »

Offline Xela

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Re: New image tagging concept
« Reply #42 on: January 10, 2015, 05:36:10 AM »
I don't know why do you see any difference between profile and sfw. I can change its name in gui, but it won't change anything.

The only way to avoid any additional checks is to not use any main tags at all together with action tags. But in this case we will never know if they are sfw or not.

@Xela
I agree the the profile tag behavior is not good like this, but I still don't get that clean tag you promote so much. We have obviously unsafe tags (sex, strip, nude...) but why should we need to care if other normal activities (rest, shopping...) are SFW or not on pictures in game?

The reason CW understood me and you didn't is because you've never applied tags in the game/tested how they behave :)

"Main Category", regardless if it's masturbation or profile or something else can only have meaning by itself if you are willing to exclude all of tags the tags that it "opens *shows in the tagger". "profile" atm is our most widely used tags and we'll f*ck it up completely either by a lot of database lookups to exclude "Action" group or by having "Action" group randomly appear when we want to show profile pictures.

This needs to be done, you have to add something that opens the action category but doesn't have a tag of it own OR add a new tag, I don't care if you call it Non-Nude or Clothed or SFW as long as we explain what it does properly AND add profile as we understand it to the window with girlsmeets tag.

Say goodbye to slimes random pack in this case. Ie the only actual monster girl pack.

** Do note that we are currently using Slimegirls (one random and one from QB). They do work well enough so I see no reason to drop them. I can retag those two myself if you don't want to do it to try and find the best way for them to work without handling them as special case.

NS is sex with one parnter, ie not group or bdsm. P1 means sex with girl, p2 means sex with guy.
So you want instead of ns+p1 and ns+p2, let's say, just p1 and p2? Why?
You could just ignore ns completely if you don't need it, p1 already = ns+p1 in terms of logic, it's just more confident for me.
Don't tell me it's too difficult to do nothing with some tag in renpy  ::)

For some reason I concluded that to be impossible yesterday... but it was very late.

So it comes down to this:

Cons:
- Extra click when tagging
- Rather large extra entry to the database (it's a popular image category).

Pros:
- We can exclude both gay/straight sex from lookup with one tag instead of two if required (I think it only needs to be done when working with masturbation taggroup).
- Less work for Dark ;)

You still don't understand what do I mean by cumcovered, it seems. Cumcovered means that there are no signs of any actions, except covered state itself. If you can say that this is a normal sex or group sex, then it is normal or group, not cumcovered.

Ok, this has potential for job events, doesn't matter what the action was, as long as there was at least one male, we can show the pic with a corresponding text.

I can add hand tag automatically if none of other tags are selected.

I would be impossible to tag an image where a girl is masturbating with a hand and a dildo or to add forced tag for example, it'll also be a bit odd because this would be the only tag that is added silently when opening a group.

We changed clothes and places tags completely, and have more accurate sex tags. It's impossible to automatically convert pictures to new system.

Ok
=========================================================

One more thing:
- Beast category... we decided not to use it in the past but we might want to reconsider with this review.
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Offline Xela

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Re: New image tagging concept
« Reply #43 on: January 10, 2015, 05:49:44 AM »
We have obviously unsafe tags (sex, strip, nude...) but why should we need to care if other normal activities (rest, shopping...) are SFW or not on pictures in game?

We can work with just adding/excluding Nude main tag. That's why I keep suggesting "either" - "or" solutions to fix it. We can have something that opens the Action menu and menu with "girlsmeets" tag where the profile should be but does not add any tags and work with that.

Lets say that you want to find an image based on clothing or location (or both). It may not be tagged with girlsmeets and profile, those are specific tags with meaning and their own place in the game.

So you call:

self.show("stage", "sfw") if we have the tag OR
self.show("stage", exclude=("Nude", "Sex")) If we don't.

It's once again a question of having more entries in DB vs convenience in coding and reducing amount of lookups in database. Same as I described in my post to Dark.
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Offline Xela

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Re: New image tagging concept
« Reply #44 on: January 10, 2015, 06:02:30 AM »
Another note: When retagging, please add all emotions to profile category so girls don't look happy all the time. System to add indifferent/sad based on joy stat is already working.
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