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Author Topic: <--Archived--> (ST concept)  (Read 19279 times)

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Offline CherryWood

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Re: SlaveTraining (ST) concept
« Reply #15 on: April 13, 2014, 05:24:12 AM »
* Character is the inherent complex of attributes that determines a persons moral and ethical actions and reactions, or something like that. But in the game we use it more like pride or stubbornness, not as a character, so maybe we should rename it, or at least add pride as a substat (like fitness for constitution in SM3).
Once again, some traits like Iron Will or Dependant affect it.
???  It never came to my mind that character could mean something like morals... but it make sense...
I always thought of it as "power of personality", something that all these tsunderes and unwavering hero characters would have... actually, that's what "Charisma" mean in a lot RPG's  :)  (where you can be ugly and charismatic at the same time)


so yeah, it is confusing...
« Last Edit: April 13, 2014, 05:40:24 AM by CherryWood »

Offline Xela

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Re: SlaveTraining (ST) concept
« Reply #16 on: April 13, 2014, 05:41:44 AM »
Yup, an interesting idea. Then again, we need to decide how to track them.

Track? Basically it's the system that we have now but min/max are determined by traits. Not all stats would be a good fit for this but some, like charisma or intelligence seem perfect.

Basically, every single girl in the game must have one of the main traits, that determines her range. When a girl is loaded into the game, her stat is set in the middle of that range, then effects of other, subtraits are applied (that can also raise/decrease maximums). I think that main traits should be locked but some subtraits should be obtainable (items/achievements/events). Those maximums would also be excluded from increasing on level ups.

I think it's a sound plan that doesn't require too many changes to the system, that you/CW can help develop (coming up with traits/descriptions/ranges) and it will make girls unique and never put them all in the "same boat" even at very high levels.

====================================================================
My thoughts about stats.

* We have full set for intelligence ready to go, maybe except the average intelligence level (just like average boobs).

* Charisma is a  compelling attractiveness or charm. I'd say it's not the actual beauty (they all are beautiful at pictures), it's the ability to use their  beauty correctly. We also have many items increasing it, like makeups.

Here we could use descriptive traits like boobs/legs/arse, maybe your favorite Cute trait, as well as Cool/Pretty/Lovely/Lolita/etc to determine range for charisma stat.

* Refinement is  fineness or elegance of feeling, taste, manners, language, etc. Basically, knowledge about society and stuff. Theoretically, it does not have a max level, there is always something new you could learn here. We do have a couple of traits, like elegant or well-mannered, that could affect it, but not many. Not sure what to do with it.

* Character is the inherent complex of attributes that determines a persons moral and ethical actions and reactions, or something like that. But in the game we use it more like pride or stubbornness, not as a character, so maybe we should rename it, or at least add pride as a substat (like fitness for constitution in SM3).
Once again, some traits like Iron Will or Dependant affect it.

* Constitution is the most clear our stat. Come to thing of it, you cannot be infinitely enduring, so here we could use traits to determine range, we have a lot of them.

Another thing is fitness. Basically, no matter how enduring you are, you cannot always be in top shape without physical activity, that's what it does as a substat in SM3. I always liked the idea.

* Magic defence. I propose to use use the formula mdef=(def+int)/3, or something like that. Right now magic is useless, because it requires mp AND it does about the same damage as attacks.

- Charisma is as good of a name for general attractiveness for a girl as any.

- Character as well, it should be one of the main factors in ST. I see little reason to rename it, we could on the other hand make it one of the trait ranged stats if we decide to take that road.

- Refinement, you're right about this one, it should prolly just stay as it is.

- I am not sure Constitution should be a traits ranged stat, need to think about this one for a while. Also AP is tied to it...

- MD is prolly a BE thing, we'll get back to it when we go back to it's further development.

* Skills should be obtainable. For example, a lvl1 warrior does not have a service skill at all, thus she should have -------- on the skills page instead of service 0/20 for example. And she requires some basic training for a start to obtain it.

I disagree with this completely, there is no reason why a warrior cannot clean for example or cannot be very good at household chores. Doing them for money she may refuse, that I'd understand.
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Offline Xela

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Re: SlaveTraining (ST) concept
« Reply #17 on: April 13, 2014, 05:44:08 AM »
so yeah, it is confusing...

I dont want to have even more main stats... splitting those is out of the question.

Making descriptions for stats might not be a bad idea in order to make them less confusing.
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Offline DarkTl

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Re: SlaveTraining (ST) concept
« Reply #18 on: April 13, 2014, 08:54:17 AM »
- Charisma is as good of a name for general attractiveness for a girl as any.
My point is that charisma is derived from beauty, and beauty in the game is based on traits. So it's like a multiplier, the more beautiful a girl, the more charisma she could have at max. But beauty itself is not everything, she has to learn how to use it, and that what charisma is.
We also could add more descriptive traits to develop this system.

- Character as well, it should be one of the main factors in ST. I see little reason to rename it, we could on the other hand make it one of the trait ranged stats if we decide to take that road.
What bothers me here is that we use character for everything. It's pride, it's morality, it's even  "power of personality". Too many for one stat.
Perhaps we should add some more traits structures to relieve the stat.

- I am not sure Constitution should be a traits ranged stat, need to think about this one for a while. Also AP is tied to it...
Unless we talking about androids and undead, max body constitution is very limited. Thus, maybe here we should begin to use races as more than just strings. Not just for constitution, but for all stats, with bonuses and penalties. It also will make girls even more unique.

I disagree with this completely, there is no reason why a warrior cannot clean for example or cannot be very good at household chores. Doing them for money she may refuse, that I'd understand.
But there is no reason why every warrior should be very good at household chores as well. It depends on the character. When, for example, some retarded whore knows nothing about magic, she shouldn't have magic at all, probably.
« Last Edit: April 13, 2014, 09:07:25 AM by DarkTl »

Offline Xela

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Re: SlaveTraining (ST) concept
« Reply #19 on: April 13, 2014, 09:53:59 AM »
My point is that charisma is derived from beauty, and beauty in the game is based on traits. So it's like a multiplier, the more beautiful a girl, the more charisma she could have at max. But beauty itself is not everything, she has to learn how to use it, and that what charisma is.

I don't understand where you're going with that. I proposed a system just like that, basetraits to specify a fixed range and subtraits to further modify them. How is your any point different?

What bothers me here is that we use character for everything. It's pride, it's morality, it's even  "power of personality". Too many for one stat.
Perhaps we should add some more traits structures to relieve the stat.

No idea how to develop a system even more complicated right now, if you have specific proposals that do not overcomplicate the development, lets have them.

Unless we talking about androids and undead, max body constitution is very limited. Thus, maybe here we should begin to use races as more than just strings. Not just for constitution, but for all stats, with bonuses and penalties. It also will make girls even more unique.

That's overthinking it. The goal should be to create a smart system that has gameplay value, I understand where this is coming from and it's not the first time this issue has been raised but we're not doing "universe/character comparisons". It's messy as sh!t in game of broad scale and impossible to balance out.

But there is no reason why every warrior should be very good at household chores as well. It depends on the character. When, for example, some retarded whore knows nothing about magic, she shouldn't have magic at all, probably.

Seems like a feature without any added gameplay benefit, like hiding a stat if it's at it's minimum. I see absolutely no point in this.

==========================
In the end, the trap of this discussion is going the Otherworld way and spending month/years developing and over-complicating stat systems and GUI while adding practically 0 gameplay/re-playability value to the game.

We need an intuitive system that shows differences in characters with least effort, we're already doing it fairly well by the way! But as players and we ourselves have pointed out, it has weaknesses:

- Traits get lost in high levels (effects are to weak)
- Very difficult to maintain
- Stats completely mismatch the pictures (charisma)
- Traits do not match the stats (retarded girl at level 50 can easily have more intelligence than a genius at level 1)

Lets try and focus on fixing what's broken here and with specific ideas/proposals instead of generalizations. So far the traits ranges thing seems like a good answer to many of these issues and it is something that I do not have to work at along so it's a double win. Other option is to leave everything as it is. If you see how a WM EX way is solving these issues, specify cause I've either forgotten how it works or absolutely cannot see it.

Any other systems/ideas/mods to our system or traits range system are welcome but with specifics on how it should work and what it adds to the game (we require it at this point of development)!
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Offline DarkTl

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Re: SlaveTraining (ST) concept
« Reply #20 on: April 13, 2014, 11:23:35 AM »
No idea how to develop a system even more complicated right now, if you have specific proposals that do not overcomplicate the development, lets have them.
We already have strict morals trait for moral. And charismatic for leadership. That's a start.

That's overthinking it. The goal should be to create a smart system that has gameplay value, I understand where this is coming from and it's not the first time this issue has been raised but we're not doing "universe/character comparisons". It's messy as sh!t in game of broad scale and impossible to balance out.
This is one of the ways to make characters very unique btw, and not as messy as others  ::)

An android should be more enduring than an elf, you cannot avoid comparisons completly. The difference is that right now you have to manually set constitution to 90 for android and 20 for elf (for example), while with meaningful races you set (at first create if needed) races.

Since we cannot create races for all existing characters, there should be a way create custom races for pack makers. And that's it.

While creation of new races by modders could be messy, you can tell it about any third party mod, like new traits or items.

Seems like a feature without any added gameplay benefit, like hiding a stat if it's at it's minimum. I see absolutely no point in this.
A less messy gui? When we'll have 10 skills, only two that the girl actually knows will be there instead of
skill1 0/10
skill2 0/20
...
skillN 0/50.

- Stats completely mismatch the pictures (charisma)
It appears that you ignored my explanation about beauty and charisma in previous posts, too bad.

Charisma is the ability to use beauty. We cannot change looks because we cannot change pictures. Thus, we don't use beauty, but do use charisma instead.

Over time girl doesn't become more beautiful, instead she becomes more charismatic.
Now, even if you know how to use beauty, it doesn't mean that you will do it all the time, like 24/7. So pictures don't have to match charisma.

If you see how a WM EX way is solving these issues, specify cause I've either forgotten how it works or absolutely cannot see it.
One sex skill and leveled traits instead of dozens of specific sex skills. Seems very good to me, and less messy too.

Any other systems/ideas/mods to our system or traits range system are welcome but with specifics on how it should work and what it adds to the game (we require it at this point of development)!
Now that you mentioned it, I have some doubts about occupation system.

Let's take Evangelion as example. Characters from it cannot be warriors or even whores (because it's not enough to have female genitals to be a whore, you need some skill too). Maybe Asuka could be a terrible service girl, but Rei cannot do anything besides piloting of that thing and going to school.

I have this small issue in many packs, often I don't know which class should have a character, because she is neither one according to the source. So I have no choice but assign it randomly.

So perhaps class should not be mandatory, maybe we could use "undefined" value for it as well, and when a girl joins you, you could ask her to become one.

Offline h3nta1fun

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Re: SlaveTraining (ST) concept
« Reply #21 on: April 13, 2014, 11:41:12 AM »
- Traits get lost in high levels (effects are to weak)
- Very difficult to maintain
- Stats completely mismatch the pictures (charisma)
- Traits do not match the stats (retarded girl at level 50 can easily have more intelligence than a genius at level 1)




One way of making traits more useful is bu not using absolute values, but instead relative ones. As such a trait will modify a certain stat by X % instead of X units. That should count as useful even on higher levels.


I wouldn't bother with the images. As much as it sounds interesting, it's only going to overcomplicate things (plus making the creation of girls packs almost impossible to do properly). Leaving it as it is should be good enough for now, after all there are other priorities for the moment.


Traits could also impose limits on how much a girl can increase a certain stat. A retarded girl shouldn't get a very high intelligence in the forst place.


To make traits more useful, there should be hard restrictions on how a girl gains them. Many games introduce items/potions that allow a girl to gain them. For example there are potions that give characters the Big Boobs trait. I think those shouldn't be included. While some traits can be indeed obtained over time (especially the character ones), others should be left alone, as it makes the girls that have them more unique. If all you need is money to get them, then there is no point of getting the X over the Y girl.


As for the stats, most of them are nice and adding more will be pointless. The group for example can be created by using an average of most of the other sex stats (excluding the lesbian stat if there are no females in the group). Otherwise a group session could be as profitable as having all of the customers on their own, cost more AP, but decrease the fatigue since she doesn't service each one on their own.
 
Bdsm could be handled as the rest of the acts, plus modifications that have to do with the character stat. If it is important enough, it can be added as a separate stat, but the development shouldn't take the WM approach with the multitudes of stats.

Offline CherryWood

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Re: SlaveTraining (ST) concept
« Reply #22 on: April 13, 2014, 12:01:21 PM »
We already have strict morals trait for moral.

I knew this was a bad name for that trait... but I was not able to come with something better  :( . It's a personality defining trait, it has it's own lines in girlsmeets, something very close to tsundere. It should raise morality, but if you want to define "morals" by traits, I think we need something more neutral for that (not tied to personality).

Offline Xela

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Re: SlaveTraining (ST) concept
« Reply #23 on: April 13, 2014, 12:14:22 PM »
We already have strict morals trait for moral. And charismatic for leadership. That's a start.

I am missing the point :(

This is one of the ways to make characters very unique btw, and not as messy as others  ::)

An android should be more enduring than an elf, you cannot avoid comparisons completly. The difference is that right now you have to manually set constitution to 90 for android and 20 for elf (for example), while with meaningful races you set (at first create if needed) races.

Since we cannot create races for all existing characters, there should be a way create custom races for pack makers. And that's it.

While creation of new races by modders could be messy, you can tell it about any third party mod, like new traits or items.

Same as above, I cannot understand how this will be applied.

While creation of new races by modders could be messy, you can tell it about any third party mod, like new traits or items.
A less messy gui? When we'll have 10 skills, only two that the girl actually knows will be there instead of
skill1 0/10
skill2 0/20
...
skillN 0/50.

Makes sense! Well, skills are one way to go, I do not really mind since it's something we'll require as game expands. I still do not understand why they should be hidden, there is no character that has a skill of 0 at something, unless it's comically implied.

It appears that you ignored my explanation about beauty and charisma in previous posts, too bad.

Charisma is the ability to use beauty. We cannot change looks because we cannot change pictures. Thus, we don't use beauty, but do use charisma instead.

Over time girl doesn't become more beautiful, instead she becomes more charismatic.
Now, even if you know how to use beauty, it doesn't mean that you will do it all the time, like 24/7. So pictures don't have to match charisma.
One sex skill and leveled traits instead of dozens of specific sex skills. Seems very good to me, and less messy too.

And you've ignored mine, the trouble is that it is clearly implied to be beauty primarily for girls and your explanation for MC all over the game since I've coded it that way, going back on that at this point is too late.

*I freaking fated the level up traits thing in WM EX :(

If take that direction, lets call them skills and use relevant stats as modifiers when ability is calculated. Seems a bit messy thought...

For example, Potion Brewing would be a skill adding value to intelligence. I don't think that we need generalized sex stat btw, with separate anal/les/bj stats. I still feel there is a better way to do this... I just don't know what it is yet  :D

Let's take Evangelion as example. Characters from it cannot be warriors or even whores (because it's not enough to have female genitals to be a whore, you need some skill too). Maybe Asuka could be a terrible service girl, but Rei cannot do anything besides piloting of that thing and going to school.

I have this small issue in many packs, often I don't know which class should have a character, because she is neither one according to the source. So I have no choice but assign it randomly.

So perhaps class should not be mandatory, maybe we could use "undefined" value for it as well, and when a girl joins you, you could ask her to become one.

Don't like the undecided idea, I expect that there is a bunch of code in the game that expects occupation to be set from the get go. I am not going to comment on any specific girl/show, it's a personal decision for content creators.
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Offline Xela

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Re: SlaveTraining (ST) concept
« Reply #24 on: April 13, 2014, 12:22:50 PM »

I knew this was a bad name for that trait... but I was not able to come with something better  :( . It's a personality defining trait, it has it's own lines in girlsmeets, something very close to tsundere. It should raise morality, but if you want to define "morals" by traits, I think we need something more neutral for that (not tied to personality).


I don't really have a problem with that...

One way of making traits more useful is bu not using absolute values, but instead relative ones. As such a trait will modify a certain stat by X % instead of X units. That should count as useful even on higher levels.

I am not sure I'll be comfortable with this, especially in game written in python. There are many traits and stats, calculating applied percentages every time stat/max is changed might hit nf performance. Doing it "on spot" is a lot of code... ranges set by traits do not require that.

Otherwise, many of the things you've mentioned are already in the game.
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Offline h3nta1fun

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Re: SlaveTraining (ST) concept
« Reply #25 on: April 13, 2014, 12:35:29 PM »
I don't really have a problem with that...

I am not sure I'll be comfortable with this, especially in game written in python. There are many traits and stats, calculating applied percentages every time stat/max is changed might hit nf performance. Doing it "on spot" is a lot of code... ranges set by traits do not require that.

Otherwise, many of the things you've mentioned are already in the game.


How about it only reapplies every time a girl gains a level. Indeed every time a stat is modified is a bit much and will have a performance hit. But they don't gain levels that frequently, so it wouldn't be that much. Not perfect, I know, but it would keep the stat modifying traits sohow useful after they gain too many levels.

Offline DarkTl

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Re: SlaveTraining (ST) concept
« Reply #26 on: April 13, 2014, 12:35:44 PM »
Same as above, I cannot understand how this will be applied.
We create a json where we list races for our girls and their bonuses/penalties. Like, androids should have more cons, while elves should have more ref and less cons. These bonuses do not have to be huge, they just have to be.

Now, if pack maker wants to create a new race that we don't have yet, he creates the same json in the girl's folder and write there all stuff, then the game loads it with the girl.

Or, if you don't want to load it, he just writes the new race name in data file, and it does nothing except being there. So we lose nothing and get at least something.

And you've ignored mine, the trouble is that it is clearly implied to be beauty primarily for girls and your explanation for MC all over the game since I've coded it that way, going back on that at this point is too late.
Omg, where and when did I say that I mean MC only?  ???
Of course it is explanation for everyone, because no one is able to change looks, not only MC. And girls cannot suddenly become more beautiful than they already are. We don't have a cosmetic surgery for both genders.

Don't like the undecided idea, I expect that there is a bunch of code in the game that expects occupation to be set from the get go.
How about random occupation then?

Offline h3nta1fun

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Re: SlaveTraining (ST) concept
« Reply #27 on: April 13, 2014, 12:40:44 PM »
The race idea is very similar to a templae with certain traits/stat mods that every member of said race should have, plus a few for each individual member of said race. Instead of doing that in the game itself, it could be done externally in an editing tool (like the one that WM had), that simply makes the xml files.

Offline Xela

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Re: SlaveTraining (ST) concept
« Reply #28 on: April 13, 2014, 12:48:40 PM »

How about it only reapplies every time a girl gains a level. Indeed every time a stat is modified is a bit much and will have a performance hit. But they don't gain levels that frequently, so it wouldn't be that much. Not perfect, I know, but it would keep the stat modifying traits sohow useful after they gain too many levels.

All traits already apply their stat bonuses that way, 10% even 5 levels I think. It didn't solve girls giving off a generic feeling thing.

We create a json where we list races for our girls and their bonuses/penalties. Like, androids should have more cons, while elves should have more ref and less cons. These bonuses do not have to be huge, they just have to be.

If you feels that it adds value to the game... create the json, I'll load/apply it. IMO this is not needed, race will be used for locations placement (girlsmeets, exotic SM, capture etc..).

Omg, where and when did I say that I mean MC only?  ???
Of course it is explanation for everyone, because no one is able to change looks, not only MC. And girls cannot suddenly become more beautiful than they already are. We don't have a cosmetic surgery for both genders.

Nowhere and never, I said that GAME IS CODED that way already, I don't want to change texts/logic at this stage.

How about random occupation then?

Don't specify it at all. Game will try to randomize, it'll never be a warrior and prostitute is favored (reflecting games realities at Alpha stage, it may be adapted at latter stages).
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Offline DarkTl

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Re: SlaveTraining (ST) concept
« Reply #29 on: April 13, 2014, 01:28:47 PM »
I don't think that we need generalized sex stat btw, with separate anal/les/bj stats. I still feel there is a better way to do this... I just don't know what it is yet  :D
Come to think of it, bj is a rather strange stat, considering that we have hj and even fj tags, and probably will use bj skill for that type of actions anyway. Maybe it should have another name, a more general one.
========================================================================
Returning to ST, I like the idea of new class (that probably will be called mistress). We should limit the number of trained slaves per AP (unlike wm, where 1 poor mistress works with all slaves at once  :) ).

As for enslavement/abduction (quite a popular request btw), for a start it could greatly hit disposition of all girls that you have, also you need to beat the victim by yourself, and maybe stay unnoticed by guards (not sure how to make this part). Also the more fame the girl has, the more dangerous it should be for MC and his business.

As for enslaving girls that already work for him, well, no one can feel safe when such things happening, so even more great disposition penalty and maybe something more.